271 10 9760 https://caspercollege.cvlcollections.org/files/original/b22ac0c4ccfeae03bde91d5da2e869a7.m4a 4fe8348adda89a2a91e57d6485e5d16d https://caspercollege.cvlcollections.org/files/original/9d1aff97434ba26058ca6f51532f2068.pdf 81af94f7af308070f6f504530b9c8a6b PDF Text Text Wyoming Symphony Oral History Project Rebecca Hein interviewing Delores Thornton, June 14, 2022 Date transcribed: July 20, 2022 Rebecca: Okay, let’s start with your name, your instrument and how you came to play that instrument. Delores: Ha, okay. Delores Thornton I play the flute, and, I guess I came to play the flute because my brother and sister both played clarinet so I didn’t want to do that and my parents thought, maybe a doctor told them, it would help my asthma. I guess because it takes so much air. Rebecca: And did it? Delores: Well you know we moved from Texas to Arizona and that probably did as much to help my asthma as anything. But, I was playing the flute by then. Rebecca: Right. Delores: So I don’t know if it helped or not. I still sometimes when ... it is cold and damp I still have asthma but you know I don’t have to use an inhaler or anything like that. It was never that bad I guess. Rebecca: I see. Okay let’s see.. Your education in general and your musical education? Delores: Okay, I have a bachelor in flute performance from the University of Arizona but I didn’t want all my friends to think music degree fluff, fluff, fluff. So, I also have a major in math and I went on one more year to get a teaching certification in math. And I did just a little bit of master’s in music but after I got my teaching certificate in math that is what I planned on doing. Because you can’t make a living in music unless you teach a band or something and I didn’t want to do that. �Rebecca: No, it is very hard especially for wind and brass I think, because at least in an orchestra you have many string players but not the same at all for woodwinds. Delores: Yeah, yeah andRebecca: Okay so you have a degree inDelores: I have a degree in flute performance with a second major in math and then I have secondary teaching certification in math. Rebecca: Okay so, my impression when we were both in the symphony was that you had a day job. And then you did your flute teaching at Casper College in the evenings is that about right? Delores: Yes, I used my math degree probably to get a civil service job, I worked for the Bureau of Reclamation as a computer technician Specialist for 32 years. Then, I taught at Casper College in the evenings and I did all my private teaching there too. Well, about three or four years ago they decided we could not do private teaching at Casper College anymore. So now I only have three or four private students and one or two college students and they don’t have ensembles anymore. So I don’t do much teaching anymore and what I do is at Hill Music, they let me use a little room there. Rebecca: Okay that would be Hill Music in Casper right? Delores: Correct, yes. Rebecca: Okay and for the non-musicians in our audience or whoever will be listening to this recording. Let’s just define the word ensemble. Delores: Oh, when I first started teaching at Casper College which was oh I don’t know probably between 35 and 40 years ago. They had lots of ensembles [groups]; they had a clarinet ensemble, guitar ensemble, flute ensemble, brass ensemble. Well about three years ago, I think about three, they got rid of all the ensembles because my ensemble always had six to eight people, one year I �had ten, but all but three or four of them were community members. They decided they wanted to, well I don’t know if they decided if they wanted to get rid of community players, for whatever reason they decided to have one ensemble that all the music majors would participate in because they all have to have two ensembles. Band being one and this would be the other. They only have 10 or 12 people in it but they wanted it all to be students. They didn’t want any community members in this particular ensemble and that is what they have gone with. So, no more ensembles. Rebecca: YeahDelores: Which is a group of players. [laughter] Yeah I don’t know. I think it is kind of too bad but, it is what it is. Rebecca: Okay so, when did you join the Wyoming Symphony Orchestra? Delores: I moved to town, to Casper, in 1976? And they just happened to have an opening. So I took my little flute to the college and played for Curtis Peacock and he said ‘Okay, you are second flute.’ And then when Priscilla left about three or four or five years later whatever it was, I don’t know if I should even say this because of the recording. I won’t go into the Casper College part. Um, I just moved up to first. There wasn’t an audition or anything. Rebecca: Yeah, well that would make sense if you were the second flute and the first flute chair was vacated. That would be Priscilla Nicolaysen? Delores: Yes, but they don’t do that anymore. When the first is vacated you have to audition you don’t just automatically move up. Rebecca: I am aware of how the symphony is being handled now so that jives with what I know. Delores: Right- [laughter] �Rebecca: Okay, great so you joined the symphony and became second flute. What are your recollections about those early years? Delores: Um, they were really really good. We had the same people and we rehearsed on a Monday night and then we had the string rehearsal on a Wednesday night and then the following week we went Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday night. Well you know because you were in there at that point too. Rebecca: RightDelores: But we had a few imports. I am sure less than 10. That would come in to play the rehearsals Friday and Saturday and then the concert Saturday night. But, it was very nice because you played with the same people all the time; you knew them. We did tours, run out concerts and tours. You know it was fun, a little different now. Rebecca: Yeah, you recently retired from the symphony, right? Delores: Yes, a year ago in May. Rebecca: Okay, so you have seen this transition between how things were done before they went to non resident conductorsDelores: Yes. Rebecca: Through the 2000’s and the 20-teens. Okay, so I would like very much to hear your opinion if you care to state it about this transition that took place. When Curtis Peacock left and they started having non resident conductors. Delores: Well, the first non resident conductor they had did not really like Casper very much. And, he would come in as I recollect, and I don’t know this for a fact, he would come in. This is when they changed the rehearsal schedule so everything was crammed into three days. Strings on Wednesday, everybody on Thursday, two rehearsals on Friday and then Saturday. So, I didn’t �care for it because you find out what you really need to work on Friday or Thursday and you don’t really have time to rehearse or prepare. Whereas, if we did the runthrough the week earlier you knew what you needed to work on. So my understanding is that he flew into town Wednesday afternoon right before that first rehearsal and I am pretty sure that I was told, it could or could not be true, that he drove back to Denver that Saturday after the concert or after the reception if they had to do a reception that day. He also had in his mind that the Casper players were lacking, you might say. And by the time he left, he told us when he was hired that he was only going to stay three years and that is what he stayed. By the time he left Richard Turner and I were the only ones in the woodwinds section from Casper. Rebecca: And that would be Richard Tuner, principal bassoon? Delores: Correct. Rebecca: Yeah. Delores: And everybody else was an import and it just kind of trickled down so that those people were in those positions. So then when we got the next conductor, who did like Casper and did like local musicians. Those other players were already situated and it just has not changed. Rebecca: Okay, let me just back up a minute the first non resident conductor was I believe Jonathan Shames is that right? Delores: Yes, that is right. Rebeca: I don’t recall who the next one was. Delores: Matthew Savery. Rebecca: Oh, Savery already in the mid 2000’s. Delores: Yes, because I think he was here for about 10 years. Rebecca: That seems about right to me. �Delores: And I don’t think there was one in between. I can't remember another one. Rebecca: YeahDelores: I am getting old and senile but I- I think those are the only two. And of course now they have Christopher. Rebecca: Christopher Dragon. Delores: Yeah, and he is a very good conductor. He knows his stuff but he too is a stepping stone, he is using the symphony as a stepping stone. I don’t know because he is the resident conductor for the Denver symphony now. Every time there is an opening I am sure it used to be, well I shouldn’t say I am sure because I don’t know, but I think they advertised in the Casper paper. Now when there is an opening they advertise throughout the Rocky Mountains you might say. So, of course, a local player doesn’t have much opportunity against a doctoral candidate or a Doctor [Doctor of Musical Arts] from Colorado. I think the last time I counted there were 14 Casper people in the symphony. You add the Wyoming people and you will probably come up with another five or six and of course many of those people teach in Laramie but don’t live in Wyoming. That is a guess, I might be talking out of school. I might be incorrect. Rebecca: Well, I wrote an article on the symphony a few years ago and my research indicated that this was the trend. That is, people were from Wyoming they had a Wyoming connection or Wyoming roots but were very possibly living somewhere else like Colorado or Nebraska or Idaho. Delores: Yeah Rebecca: Yeah, okay let’s see. Let’s go to your musical experience with the symphony. Do you recall high points or favorite pieces? Or just in general, how it was to play in the symphony from a standpoint of music making? �Delores: I- I thought it was really good. Even back in the day when we had Curtis and it was a local group I thought we put on good performances and I think we sounded good. Then when Johnathan Shames came, and again this is just my opinion, he really liked modern music. Especially modern music that was written by his friends. Many times we couldn’t even find a YouTube recording of these pieces. And one time I even had a friend of mine from the Bureau say ‘We left at intermission because it was just ugly.’ Rebecca: (Laughs) and I was going to say how are they going to keep an audience. Delores: Well, and we didn't. I think our audience went way down. And then when Matthew came in I think he played to the audience. He was picking music that they would want to hear and our audience built up. Of course, now we still have a good audience because we have extremely fine players. But I really thought when we lost the local players that we would lose some of the audience because a lot of people come to hear their teachers, neighbors, and friends. But that doesn’t seem to be the case. I have gone to the symphony all last season and they have good audiences. So I guess I was wrong about that. And I know their quality has risen. How could it not rise when you have mostly doctoral musicians in there? Rebecca: A former long time member of the symphony ... told me. With Christopher Dragon in that it is really hard for locals, well you just told me this, to beat somebody who is practicing six hours a day. These people are auditioning up here because they want Dragon to notice them because of what he is doing in Colorado. Delores: (laughter) That could be very true. Last time they had a string bass rehearsal, I mean audition. We have a local string bass who is very good and did play in the symphony for a lot of years. But he was up against two doctoral candidates or full doctorals and he was not chosen. It would have been so much cheaper, but whatever. �Rebecca: Yeah I know when a local person is excluded and they are perfectly competent that is hard to watch. Delores: It is, it is. Rebecca: But there is not questionDelores: And that is why I retired because it wasn’t fun anymore. In fact, that last season I played was the pandemic season and I didn’t play with the regular oboes one time. And I didn’t play with the same oboes, I don’t think, more than once. You know because they were excluding everybody so maybe the regular oboes chose not to play because they didn’t want to be exposed or whatever. But it’s not fun to play when you are playing with different people every time. You don’t learn how to mesh and play together. It just wasn’t fun anymore. Rebecca: So you are saying you would probably be playing in the symphony still if things were different? Delores: Um, probably, probably. What I would have liked to have done which of course is never going to happen. I would have liked to move down to second chair and let someone else have the stress of [playing] principal. Then I would still be playing, but of course they aren’t ever going to do that. And the second chair is quite capable of playing principal but she isn’t going to audition against the doctoral people; it's humiliating anyway. And certainly if she would have gotten it I wouldn’t have auditioned for the second chair against the doctorates because that would have been humiliating. (laughter) Anyway, that’s my sad story. Rebecca: Casper has a really really really good orchestra to listen to but to me it sounds like the direction that Teton Music Festival has gone. Well I guess they didn’t really go that direction because they started that way which isn’t really part of Wyoming it just happens to be geographically located in this state. �Delores: I think that is a true statement. And I don’t even think the Cheyenne Symphony is a whole lot of Cheyenne players either. I think they mainly come up from Colorado as well, but I don’t know that for a fact. Rebecca: Well I have had that impression for a while and I think it is true. In fact, let me think when I was researching for the article I did on the symphony I ran across a very irate letter to the editor. I sure hope this is right. The conditions in the Cheyenne Symphony that it was really the Northern Colorado Symphony with only a few people from Wyoming in it. Delores: Well you know we joke a little bit that it would probably be cheaper for the symphony to move our rehearsals to northern Colorado. Instead of bringing all the imports up here. Rebecca: Yeah, I guess its a measure of the monetary support that the symphony has that they can afford to import so many people, and at such a high standard. I must say when I was a kid, the imports were housed in private homes and it was a very informal, low-cost arrangement. No one complained about [it]. I mean the imports didn’t complain being housed in private homesDelores: Yeah I remember that. Rebecca: My parents often hosted people so I remember that from high school when I was playing in the symphony. And college, coming back from UW. Okay, great soDelores: And now they probably import 30 or 40 people every time. It’s a lot, but now they have people that- I can’t even think of the right word. They choose a player and donate toward that player, sponsor and maybe that’s where they are getting some of that money but yeah. Rebecca: Well yeah that fills in the picture. So let’s go back to your musical experience, do you have any pieces that were your favorite to play or that were really wonderful. And do you remember what those pieces were? �Delores: Um…. Well, I played the L’eseini Suite that is a lot of flute stuff so that was challenging. Rebecca: What suite? Delores: It’s like L-’-e-s-e-i-n-i or something like that L’eseini Suite. I can't even remember who it’s by now. Because that’s where my names are, my names are what I am losing. But, Carmen was always a lot of fun to play. Rebecca: Alright, the Carmen suite [a selection of pieces from Carmen, an opera by Georges Bizet, 19th century French composer] Delores: Yeah- they actually did that last season and Christopher did, there are two suites, and he did both of them. So it was like ten movements and I thought it was way too much. [a movement is a self-contained part of a musical composition] But I enjoy playing the symphonies, you know Mozart and the Haydn. I enjoy all of it. Certainly much more than the modern stuff. [Franz Joseph Haydn, 18th century Austrian composer] Rebecca: Which has pretty much stopped? Delores: I’m sorry what? Rebecca: Does Dragon include classic pieces or does he stick with audience pleasers, if I am being quite frank? Delores: No I think, I am trying to think if I played any modern pieces with him. I am sure he plays a few more contemporary pieces but he sticks with a lot of the regular stuff I think. It’s an enjoyable experience to go to the symphony. I haven't heard anything that was really ghastly, well in my opinion. Sometimes the modern music you can’t even find a melody in it. You know, it’s just not pretty and I don’t recall hearing anything like that so far. �Rebecca: Now I have been involved in this discussion of contemporary music for many years now and I always lose to the people who say, “Oh, you just aren’t being open minded enough,” “You’re closed minded,” “You are mired in the ways of the late 19th century.” And I guess that is exactly where I want to be, Mozart, Beethoven, and Brahms and I just can’t apologize for it. Delores: See and that’s me too, and I played with the Casper College Band last semester because they didn’t have a flute player. So, I got to do it and he really likes modern music. Contemporary music maybe one would say and some of it is really, really nice. Some of it is really, really hard and some of it is just uck- I don’t like it. A lot of modern music is really repetitive. You have the same measure that you play ten times and then you have another measure that you play ten times. I don’t know, I am stuck with the old classics as well. Rebecca: Yeah, I am trying to formulate a thought here about this…but it has escaped me. I guess I won’t. It will come back to me right when you are in the middle of something. But, I do want to back up I am going to define ‘suite.’ Carmen was an opera by Georges BizetDelores: Oh yeah. Rebecca: And a suite is a selection from a larger work, I am thinking about The Nutcracker Ballet. There is a whole lot in The Nutcracker Ballet and the Nutcracker suite is taken from that but it is certainly not the whole ballet. Delores: Right, and it is usually 3, 4, or 5 pieces. Rebecca: Yeah short. I did not know there were two suites from Carmen. Delores: You know, I did not know that either and he put them together and apparently they aren’t consecutive because they were interspersed between each other. Because I would hear a movement, “oh yeah I know that one” then I would hear one I had never heard before. So obviously I never played the second suite, but anyway. It was just a whole lot of the same, 10 �movements is just too much. In my opinion, I guess I don’t have the attention span for 10 movements. Rebecca: (laughter) Okay so, does one performance stand out to you or jump out as the most exciting, the most wonderful, maybe the most challenging but rewarding? Delores: Now that is a difficult question. I don't think I have an answer for that one. Rebecca: Too many such moments? Is that why you don’t have an answer or is there another reason? Delores: Oh no, I like them all I just don’t have one thing I remember where I was “Oh wow! That was certainly the best one ever!” I think they were all good. I enjoy playing. Rebecca: Yeah, I know what you mean; I do too. Okay I am looking at my notes. Does anything come to mind that you would like to say about your time with the symphony? Delores: Um, I think- I think I loved it even through the Jonathan Shames days, I have always enjoyed playing. And I think like I said if I could have gone down to second that I would still be playing, but you know I am old and my fingers don’t work as fast and my eye-sight isn’t as good and like I said it wasn’t fun and it was time for me to get out so I did. Rebecca: Yeah, I rememberDelores: I would say it is certainly more fun to play than to listen, but I still go and listen. But I still keep thinking, “boy I wish I were up there playing.” Rebecca: Yeah I know what you mean. Playing, there is nothing like it. Unless it is a struggle. I have been in positions, not recently or for quite a while, this was early in my career, where I was over my head. That was not fun. Oh well. �Delores: Yeah, I don’t recall ever feeling like, “boy I really screwed up that performance big time.” Which is good I guess. That is another reason you should get out when you can so they don’t have to tell you, “Delores it is time for you to step down.” Rebecca: Well wind players are in a little different of a position than string players because frankly in a string section it is a little bit easier to hide. To fake it if you have to or if you are slipping last longer because you have the entire sound of the section to camouflage your shortcomings. Delores: Yes, true that. Rebecca: And for woodwinds and brass you guys are basically in a solo position where whatever you play is heard. You are the only one playing the part. Delores: Yes. That was the case with the band this last semester because I was the only flute. So, although the group is so small now he is always playing these pieces that only have five parts so there is always someone who has the same part. It wasn’t a flute, but yes it is stressful. To be out there hanging out there alone. Rebecca: It keeps you- I am sure it keeps you on your toes. I remember when I spent, at one point in my career I think it was a full year and three months playing in only orchestras and it wasn’t very good for my playing because you can’t hear yourself as well as if you are playing chamber music for example. I should mention for the non-musicians that chamber music is when there is one person on a part, you can’t possibly hide or fake your way through. Delores: Right, Right- Playing a quintet or a chamber group is fun and I still do that. I am a- I don’t know what you would call me but we have a little group that is two flutes, bassoon, and a piano and they still allow me to do that because no one is going to come up from Colorado to play at a nursing home for an hour or a half an hour. So I guess I am still an honorary member �and I really enjoy doing that. Playing in the small groups for different groups like nursing homes and assisted living and stuff. Rebecca: That is really cool, if it is a group of two flutes, a bassoon and a piano do you guys do transcriptions of other pieces then? Delores: Do we do what? Rebecca: Transcriptions of other pieces, not written for that combination. [To transcribe is to arrange a musical composition for some instrument or voice other than the original] Delores: Oh, um. Yes because we do a lot of chamber music and a lot of it was written for you know two violins and bassoon or cello and piano that kind of stuff. Rebecca: Yeah. Delores: And of course we do that through the symphony. The symphony does the job for us and sends us out. Rebecca: Oh, I didn’t know that. Delores: Yeah, it is called Music on the Move. We used to play, we used to do a lot of schools. But of course since the pandemic we haven’t done any of that. But I think that we did like three nursing homes, assisted living homes, in May and June. Nope this is May so it must have been March and April. (laughter) So anyway we are getting out there still which is fun. Rebecca: That is great. Okay, well it is kind of fun for you to tell me that you didn’t have a high point because it was all so much fun. That is not a common answer but it sure makes sense to me. Delores: (laughter) Well that’s good, I mean none stick out. I always felt good after I left a performance. �Rebecca: Okay, I am scanning my notes. Is there anything else you want to add before we wrap up? Delores: Um- No I don’t think so. Rebecca: Okay, well thank you very much for making yourself available. Delores: And thank you for including me. Rebecca: Well sure, I will talk to you later. Delores: Okay, Bye-Bye. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource WyoHistory.org Wyoming Symphony Orchestra Oral History Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/</a> Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2022-2023 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource WyoHistory.org; Rebecca Hein Language A language of the resource ENG Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NCA 01.i.2022.02 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound; Text Description An account of the resource Audio files and transcripts created and edited by Rebecca Hein and students at Casper College during an oral history project with players of the Wyoming Symphony Orchestra. The oral histories were conducted by Hein between 2022 and 2023 and are a part of Wyohistory.org publishing project. Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data M4A Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Delores Thornton Wyoming Symphony Orchestra Oral History Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/</a> Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2022-06-14 Description An account of the resource Audio file and transcript for oral history interview with Wyoming Symphony Orchestra player Delores Thornton. This interview was conducted by Rebecca Hein for Wyohistory.org on June 14, 2022. Type The nature or genre of the resource M4A Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Becky Hein; Delores Thornton Language A language of the resource ENG Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. WyoHistory.org Wyoming Symphony Orchestra Oral History Project, NCA 01.i.2022.02 WyCaC US. Casper College Archives and Special Collections. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NCA 01.i.2022.02_Delores_Thornton_6-14-22_Condensed Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource M4A https://caspercollege.cvlcollections.org/files/original/94efdf89093a74dc872fb0a8e2de473b.mp3 889eb1e7d0275a1d6cd6b238ca3490fd https://caspercollege.cvlcollections.org/files/original/9959218010dbddb6b6f82f8b686afaf5.pdf 50bcb11b7429602ab2a8e22a751ae19f PDF Text Text Wyoming Symphony Oral History Project Rebecca Hein interviewing Holly Turner, September 13, 2022 Date transcribed: October 19, 2022 Rebecca: Okay. Thank you for making yourself available today. Holly: Pleased. Rebecca: Let's start with your name and how you became affiliated with the symphony. Holly: Okay. My name is Holly Turner. And when I moved to Casper, I worked for the Nicolaysen Art Museum for a year. And then I heard the symphony was looking for an executive director. So I applied for that job and got the job. And so I became an executive director of the symphony after Dale Bohren was the director. Rebecca: What year was that? Do you recall? Holly: Oh, dear. Shoot. I can look up my resume here. Let's see if I can find it here. I can look forward as we continue the interview, Rebecca. Uh. Okay. How have you been? Can you hear me, Becky? So I started in, I started with the symphony as the executive director May of 1995 to May 2002. Rebecca: Okay. And what made you decide to apply for the job? Holly: Well, I love the arts and I love music and I loved the symphony. I had been, and so I thought it would be a great opportunity to try and be the executive director. And I loved it. Rebecca: Okay. Great. What did you have to do as executive director? Holly: What was part of my job duties? Yeah, well, the number one with a lot of executive directors that I've had jobs, being an executive director is, of course, raising money. And you have to have, you know, when you have a budget, you have to make sure that you can raise the money to pay the musicians, to pay the salaries, to pay the electricity bill. And so fundraising was a major part of my job. So I know managing the whole office and managing the season ticket sales and managing all of the aspects of social media, well, we didn’t have social media back then that much. But but managing all of the office duties and the concerts and making sure everyone got paid and fundraising, making sure that we had our bills paid were some of the major duties and getting, and working with the conductor to help with the season, help with the marketing of the season and a lot of fundraising. I was in charge of all of the the fundraisers that we had, like the Symphony Balls and we did the Dream House, we did the Symphony Dream House. We did, we sold raffle tickets for an RV, I think, [and] a car one year and so that was a big job is the fundraising and then working with the board of directors to of course raise the money and work with them to manage and operate all the operations of the symphony orchestra. Rebecca: Did you have any office staff at any time when you were the executive director? �Holly: When I first was hired, no, I didn't have any staff. And then I got a senior citizen helper that was no charge from the Senior Citizens program, and they helped me with answering the phones and things. And when we moved our office from on Second Street to the downtown office, I still had a senior person, and then I didn’t. Before I left, I did have an administrative assistant that helped me with all the finances and some of the office work. And I was a one woman show for quite a while. Rebecca: That was my understanding. Holly: Yeah. Rebecca: So let's see. You did mention fundraising. I was going to ask you a little bit more about that. You know, there was what you might call routine fundraising and then special projects, is that right? Holly: Mmhmm. The routine fundraising: So to raise money for the orchestra, there's a lot of ways to fundraise. One of them was grant writing, so I did a lot of grant writing with the Wyoming Arts Council, Wyoming Community Foundation, those kinds of places and foundations. And wherever I could find grants, I would try to apply for grants for the symphony. Grants [were] one way. Season tickets was another way to raise money. Donors. Donors would donate money. And then we'd have our special event fundraisers like the Symphony Ball, the Symphony [Christmas] Home Tour and we did the Symphony Dream House. Those kinds of things were special. Rebecca: Yeah. Now, the ball and the home tour were annual events. Is that right? Holly: For a long time, yes. The Symphony Guild was active at the time when I was there and they helped me and we put on the Symphony Ball, we put on the Symphony Home Tour. Those are the two major fundraisers for the symphony, from what I recall. Yeah. And they were fun. It really brought, it really involved the community with the symphony also. Rebecca: Yeah. And I remember when you gave me an interview when I did my article on the symphony, and you went into some detail about the Dream Home Project. Could you tell me about anything you'd care to tell us about that? Holly: Well, I know, you know, getting enough money to be able to pay the musicians more money and to be able to support the symphony, you know, as far as the budget. We needed more moneys, and I remember coming up with the idea and talking with Rocky Eades [of Eades Construction] in Casper that maybe we could build a home and they did it at their cost. So then all of the moneys would go to the symphony. But we sold 4000 tickets at $100 each, and that was a very difficult ... it took us quite a while to do that, and we had never done that before. So it was a lot of issues that we had to work [through]. And I know Rocky really helped us with the house, of course, and having his, all of his people donate or maybe, you know, have everything at cost. So we went to everything we could think of from big shows at the [Casper] Events Center, and I got on radio and TV and and I was everywhere with a booth trying to sell these symphony ... dream house tickets. And we did it. We sold them all. And I remember we were on the steps of the house right after the Moody Blues concert, and we had the drawing and it was so exciting. We had music playing from the Moody Blues. You guys had just played with them, the �symphony had just played, the musicians had played with Moody Blues; it was a very exciting evening. And then we were giving away the Dream House and and the winner was actually there when we drew the winner, I think it was Dan and Chris. I think it's Chris, Galles, won the dream house. And so it was just a very exciting time for the board and for all of us. And I know we raised over, I think $130,000 was net. So we, it was a significant fundraiser for the symphony, maybe even close to $200,000 that, I, if my memory is ... trying to remember exactly what we raised. Rebecca: It sounds like it was a historic fundraiser in the sense that there probably had not been any one effort that had netted that much before. Holly: Exactly. Yeah. And I don't think anyone since, I don't know that they've ever given away a house before. So it was something that was very unique for the symphony. And I it brought, I think people were so excited all around Casper and the state, you know, that they could win a house. And they still, I think, call it the Symphony Dream House, which is pretty wonderful that they still call it that, because I have a friend that I think, it's sold several times, but they were so proud that they were in the Symphony Dream House. Yeah. Rebecca: Well, I, I have always been impressed by that achievement because it was, sounds like it was a special and sort of a super effort where people had to work much harder than they normally did on a fundraiser. Holly: And yes, people just didn't, couldn't quite grasp that they could win a house. And so for $100, you know, they were like, what about the taxes? And I said, well, you know, you you can sell the house and pay the taxes and still come home with quite a bit of money. You know, and I think the people that won it stayed in it a couple of nights and then they did sell it and I think they paid off their house or something. And so it was just a wonderful opportunity for somebody and it was a definite big job to sell that many tickets at that price because at that time, that was a lot of money to take a chance. Rebecca: Yeah for some people, that always will be a lot of money. Holly: Exactly. Rebecca: Okay. So you mentioned also raffling off a car. Do you recall anything about that? Holly: I think it was after me that they raffled off a car, but I think we had raffled off, I know there was, seems to me, I think after me also because I think I was pretty burned out after raising [indistinguishable], but I think they did do an RV. They sold raffle tickets for an RV. And I think that was successful too. But I don't think quite ever was as much [as] was raised as the Symphony Dream House. Rebecca: And it probably helped the image of the symphony quite a bit, boosted the visibility of the organization, would you say? Holly: Yes, I think, you know, everybody was just enamored and just excited. And this, that dream, that thought of that, oh, my gosh, I could win a house. You know, I think that really captured everybody's attention as far as in the community, because I don't think it had been done �before. It was a unique fundraiser. So I think from all the TV and radio and newspaper and all of us selling those tickets at the house and at different events, it really got the symphony's name out there in the community that we were doing that to increase the quality and the reach of the Wyoming Symphony. Rebecca: Yeah, and when you think about what it takes to build a house, all the different people or types of professionals, like the architect and the carpenters and the foundation layers and the siders and the roofers and the electricians and you name it. Holly: All of that. I know. And luckily, Rocky Eades and Lisa Eades were experts at that. And so they handled a lot of the actual building of the home. And we handled, of course, all the marketing, the promotion and the sale of the tickets. So, but it was a true partnership with the community and with a donor that really wanted to give back and and really help the symphony with its operating and raising those monies. Rebecca: Yeah. And did that have a direct effect on what we could afford for guest artists, for example? Holly: Right. And that was another cost that, you know, we couldn't afford, maybe. So I think our average was around $1,000 to $2,000, if we were lucky. You know, and I think this afforded us the opportunity to get some amazing guest artists like Mark O'Connor, as you remember, and some caliber musicians of that quality is what it’s helped us with. I know we could pay the musicians [more]. I know that it just helped us in all ways with the operations of the symphony. Rebecca: Yeah. Hold on. I'm making a note here. Sure. So there was a Moody Blues concert under you then? Holly: Yes. Dale had had one under him also. Dale Bohren. And I was, I just thought that was wonderful. And I, in my tenure also, we brought in Three Dog Night. We brought in Kansas and then the Moody Blues and the orchestra played at the Events Center with all three of those bands. In that time I was there and it was really, I think, a wonderful opportunity for also reaching out to the community and people maybe decided maybe they didn't know about the symphony and maybe they didn't know about coming to a concert, but oh my gosh, they're going to play with, they're going to be playing with Moody Blues or Kansas or Three Dog Night. I know those groups and I'll come check it out. And we did have a direct correlation after those concerts of an increase in sales for our concerts. And then people thought, Oh, I love those concerts and maybe I'll try a Beethoven concert or I'll try the Beethoven in blue jeans. I remember we did, it was fun and I'll never forget a woman called me and said, “You're serious? I really can wear jeans to a symphony concert? I go, I've always wanted to go,” she said. “But my husband doesn't want to dress up and really he can wear blue jeans?” And I said, “Of course you can.” That's Beethoven in blue jeans. And so at the time we really tried to reach out to the community and just to have different kinds of concerts that would really kind of kick people's interests and make them want to give us a try. And, you know, at the time there's this thought, I think that maybe the symphony wasn't for them or that it wasn't for everyone. And it truly is. It's a beautiful, the music is just incredible and it is for everyone. And I think those other special concerts really intrigued people. And they came and then they gave us a try on them on the regular concert season. �Rebecca: So was there a significantly better attendance at the bluejeans concert? Holly: Yes, I think that was our season opener and we had a ice cream social out front and that was really fun. So people had ice cream out on the lawn of the NC [Natrona County High School, Casper] and they came into the concert, they could wear blue jeans. It was casual. And I think sometimes the symphony gets a bad rap that it's high brow or something. You have to know something about the subject to be able to come. But truly, everyone can enjoy music and does enjoy music. And that's, if you just come to the symphony and just listen, you will love it. And there's just so much variety in the quality of classical music. And the more classical concerts you go to, I think the more you enjoy the classical concerts and your ear develops. And so I think these other concerts just brought people in and gave them a chance to try it out or made them feel comfortable and welcome in the concert hall. Rebecca: Yeah. And I would venture to say that once a person has heard live music, they realize how much better it is than any recording they could ever listen to. And they want to hear that more. Holly: Exactly. Oh, yes. In live music, there's something about a live concert that you just cannot, I mean, you love hearing music on the radio and your albums and things like that. But truly, the intensity and the the joy and the musicians, all those wonderful musicians working together with the conductor and the guest artists, it's a magical thing. And there's nothing like a live performance. Rebecca: Yeah. I'm looking at the duties you listed, and one of the things I'd like to ask you. I know you did this for Mark O'Connor, but was it part of your duties to meet the guest artists at the airport and drive them around and make sure they had everything they needed logistically and all that? Holly: Definitely, yes. It began with contacting their agents and then I would contact them and then I would actually talk with the artists, the guest artists. I would pick them up at the airport. I would take them to their hotel, I'd pick them up for the rehearsals and things and and make sure that they drank enough water because it's very dry here and all that. So I really enjoyed that so much because the artists came from all over and they had such amazing stories to tell and they were just incredible people. And I remember one of, one of the gentlemen, I think a violinist, had a Stradivarius and Guarnerius and something like that. So I got to actually see a Stradivarius and a Guarnerius violin, and they were just incredible. And I think at the time our budget was about $400,000. I think we had, we had gone up from about $250,000 to $400,000. So that was something, you know, to be able to raise those kinds of funds for the guest artists and for all the [indistinguishable] symphony. Rebecca: Yeah. I have a question about, well, I have a couple of questions. One is, in addition to Mark O'Connor, which I want to come back to him. Were there memorable guest artists that you've had really interesting conversations with or whose company you especially enjoyed or anything like that? Holly: Oh, gosh. Yes. Trying to think, there's so many. I remember. Oh, gosh. The Broadway stars that came from New York. That was wonderful. We sold that concert out. So there were �three Broadway stars, and I think he was the second Phantom. But I his name escapes me right now. But I. I know there was. Oh, gosh. ... Wu Han and David Finckel, I think was another, they were wonderful and just the, you know, the collaboration with University of Wyoming. [Han is a Taiwanese-American pianist; Finckel, her husband, is an American cellist] And then to have, be able to afford those, the quality of artists. I think it was incredible also. And just to hear, you know, their journey from, you know, maybe going to Julliard [prestigious music school in New York City] or wherever to then to have them be able to come to Casper. I remember also we had a group called Flash Cadillac. They were fun too, and then I think Wynton Marsalis’ son, or brother, was one of the Marsalises came also and and they were wonderful. [Wynton Marsalis is an American trumpeter, composer and music instructor; currently the artistic director of Jazz at Lincoln Center.] And usually after the concert or before the concert, we’d go out for dinner and we’d just talk about the music and we’d talk about their their lives as a musician. And it was one of my favorite things is to meet the musicians and, and enjoy conversation with them. The guest artists. But Mark O'Connor probably stands out. Above all, though, he was amazing and I think we brought him here several times. And then when I went to the job of Wyoming Symphony, I mean to the Nicololaysen Art Museum. I remember bringing Mark O'Connor to Nic Fest and have, he performed at Nic Fest. And so we loved him so much here that we brought him back and even in a different capacity. Rebecca: Well, I remember he was one of those guest artists that, though his exceptional talent really set him above the rest of us, he didn't behave that way as a person. It seemed to me he was very, I don't know, one-to-one with his fans. You know, he didn't despise them because they couldn't play the fiddle as well as he did or couldn't play it at all. And he was, [being] up there on stage with him, you know, I could tell that he just wasn't arrogant about who he was and what he could do. Holly: He really wasn't. He was a wonderful person. And I think he came from humble roots, you know, and he would travel around [to] all those the fiddle competitions, I think. And then when he when he made the leap to work with orchestras, I think he just enjoyed it so much. And I think the music making was, he loved it and he loved playing the violin. And it was pretty exciting to watch how amazing he was and how accomplished. But you're right, he was just so down to earth and friendly and it was just a pure joy to have him visit and play with us. Rebecca: Yeah, and you got, relatively speaking, quite a lot of his company because you were the person that drove him around and made sure he got meals and all the rest of that, right? Holly: Exactly. And made sure that he was taken care of. And I think he suffered a little bit from some major headaches. And so, you know, you get to know these musicians and what they go through with stress and with their practicing and with what goes into being a guest artist of that quality is pretty amazing. The dedication and the work they put in for their craft and their art. Rebecca: Yeah. And then after the concert he sat out in the lobby for, I don't know how long signing CDs and programs and that just amazed me. And the same thing happened in Laramie when he was there. I forget what year, a few years later. There were him and the people that played with him out there available to talk to anybody for as long as ... so he really knew how to look after his fans. �Holly: Yes, he really, I think that's what he loved so much is to hear the stories of his fans and to hear, you know, to be with people that enjoyed his music. And I think he he loved that. Rebecca: Okay. So, how did all the, I don't know what to call them. I suppose they were pops concerts, the ones that you did with the various rock groups like Flash Cadillac, Three Dog Night and Kansas. How did the board view that? And did they help or were they just kind of tolerant of it? Or do you not want to say. Holly: Well, it was, that's always a question with orchestras, you know, how much pops do you do and why do you do pops? Is it dumbing down? Is that, those were all conversations, I think, that were held throughout the years. But from what I saw, I think, you know, pops really reaches out to the, you know, the community and to people that maybe just don't know about the symphony. And I think it's just a way to bring them in. And I think, you know, it's fun. It's fun. And I think the musicians, I was worried about the musicians. I think at some point I was like, “Oh, no, they don't want to do that.” But every concert we had with the Moody Blues or any of those, the orchestra seemed to really enjoy it. So that made me really happy that the musicians enjoyed it and the community enjoyed it, the audience loved it, and it really just brought more people to the symphony. And that's what my goal was, always was to spread the joy of the music and get people to come because there's nothing worse than an empty hall and you're not sold out. Concerts are a full hall when you're, you know, you're playing this incredible music and all the work you all, all the musicians put into it. I just think, it's, it's just that was my goal is to get as many people as possible into that hall and to enjoy this incredible music. Rebecca: Yeah. I have a note here. A little bit ago, you said something I would like you to clarify, please. You mentioned collaborating with UW [University of Wyoming] to get guest artists. Can you go into a little more detail? Holly: That's right. They had a larger budget than we did as far as bringing in guest artists for their orchestra program. And I think somewhere along the line, I must have, there was a tour, I think, Barry Douglas [Irish pianist and conductor] was one of those, and I think Marcus Roberts [American jazz pianist, composer, arranger, bandleader and teacher] was also part of some of that. And it's maybe not necessarily him, but Wu Han and David Finckel were part of that also. And some of these artists we could never afford. I think UW had this program where they wanted to outreach into the community of Wyoming. And I contacted them and they said, yes, we'd love to play with with the Wyoming Symphony. And they were trying to take these musicians around the state. And, for example, I think they might have cost maybe 10 to 15, $20,000 for these guest artists, and we only had to pay $2,000. So it was just an amazing opportunity for us to have the quality of of guest artists that maybe we couldn't afford at that time. And that partnership really was a wonderful one. I'm not sure if they do that anymore, but I thought it was a great collaboration with the university to do outreach into the state with that kind of program. Rebecca: Yeah, that's a really good example of the university serving the community, basically the statewide community. That's wonderful. Holly: Right �Rebecca: Okay. I just want to get back a minute to guest artists briefly. I noticed as a musician, when we had a soloist, you could kind of tell, they didn't have to say much, you could just tell whether they were kind of, just folks. They, they didn't, they were like Mark O'Connor, you know, they they were. Holly: Mhm. Rebecca: They didn't let their superior musical ability give them a swelled head around lesser musicians, community musicians. And then there were others that I sort of got the strong feeling that they were lowering themselves by even being on the stage with us. So I don't know if you ran into that with all the contact you had with guest artists or not, the sort of being grudging. Holly: I kind of felt that too, a little bit. And, but they were so professional. Usually most of them were so professional. You could kind of tell just by their, you know, their reactions a little bit. But they never said, I don't think I ever heard anyone say, oh, my gosh, I'm lowering myself to play with this, with a community orchestra. And there are a few times I do have to say, though, that maybe, we weren't maybe as prepared as they would have liked or something. But then I think it all worked out beautifully. You know, but the conductor, you know, that was part of their job is to get everybody ready. And so, but that's always the dance with the guest artists and, you know, to be prepared and to be open to what they needed or wanted or how they wanted to do something. So it's a collaboration between all of you. You know, the conductor, the musicians and the guest artists. So it was always fascinating how these, some of these rehearsals went and you're like, oh, my gosh, this is going to happen. And then it all worked out. So luckily it all happened and was okay. Rebecca: Right. So there might be some junctures at which the best the person could say would be no comment or “All’s well that ends well.” Holly: Yes. You know, and but they really, for the most part, from my experience, is all the musicians have maybe never been, the guest artists had not been, maybe to Wyoming. And they enjoyed the experience of a different state and a different orchestra. And, you know, and that's the challenge of the, of bringing the imports in that we had to from all over the state and from Colorado, is that we had such a short rehearsal time with the orchestra all together and with the guest artists. So that was always a challenge. And that always just was amazing to me that, you know, you all musicians, everybody was so professional and it all worked out beautifully and it seemed like it always was magic when the concert happened. Rebecca: Yeah, I think people kind of rise to the demand of playing for an audience no matter what happened in the rehearsal. Okay, I have a question, then I have a related question. When you were driving back from the airport, unless it was night, did you get comments from people about Casper Mountain? Because the view from the airport road is really something. The drive to Casper. Holly: They always just thought it was beautiful out here. They had never seen such skies. I mean, the sky was a big, was a mention, the mountain was there. And I'd always usually take them out to Lookout Point [on Casper Mountain Road] and I'd give them a little tour of the Casper area. And they just seemed to fall in love with Wyoming and they really thought �Wyoming people were friendly and welcoming. I did play a few practical jokes on them about the Jackalope. I have to admit that was the funniest thing. I would say, “Now you have to watch out for those jackalope, those little horns. They'll come after your ankles.” Yeah, I had some of the guest artists going pretty well, and then I go, “Oh, no, I'm just kidding. The little Jackalope horns are not going to get your ankles.” [It was] pretty funny. But though, I remember that a lot because there was a few questions that people would say, “What were those jackalopes?” That was pretty funny. And then, you know, there's the dryness here and just taking care of those musicians so that they had a good time. And the wonderful hotels here put the musicians up, too. They took care of the musicians wonderfully, too. And they just, they seemed to really enjoy being here and, you know, traveling and meeting people from all over. So I think that was truly wonderful to to meet them and to hear [the] places all over the world that they had been and where they had traveled. Rebecca: Yeah. Given that there were a certain percentage of the soloists were wind, brass or vocal, did you get comments or possibly complaints on the problem of having to accommodate themselves to 5,000 feet altitude, maybe rather suddenly for some of them? Holly: Definitely, yes. And that was always the situation where they were worried about their instruments, sometimes because of the dryness, then also their voice and making sure they drank enough water so that their voice was, you know, that that they could sing or, you know, play their instrument. But there was comments definitely about the altitude and how they were either out of breath or it just, it surprised them, I think, that it affected them as much as it did. So yeah, that was always a common, it seemed like when the guest artists came. Rebecca: Yeah. Well, you hear about Olympic athletes, like when, when the Olympics are slated to be in Mexico City, coming there a month ahead of time just to acclimate themselves to the altitude. But musicians do not have that luxury, seems to me. Holly: Exactly. And, you know, just the lung capacity too, when you're used to a certain, you know, they are athletes, too. Also, you know ... it was. But I think everyone did really well. And, you know, there was a little bit of altitude, you know, I think it affected, I don’t remember, altitude type sickness. I don't think anyone that I knew really ever got sick sick. But that definitely they could tell. Rebecca: Now, they could probably especially tell when you took them out to Lookout Point, which is what, probably at least 7000 feet at that point. Holly: Exactly. Rebecca: Okay, great. Let's see. Oh, yes. The conductor search, which would have been about 2001. Something like that? Holly: Because I think I left right when we had hired Jonathan Shames as our next conductor. Rebecca: Yeah. So it's my understanding that you actually went and took a training on how to conduct or how to do a conductor search. �Holly: Yes, I did. Right. The American Symphony Orchestra League was a wonderful resource for me and for the orchestra. And they had a conductor training workshop in Chicago. And I think Becky Mothersbaugh [Concertmaster of the Wyoming Symphony (first chair, first violin and leader of the string section)] and I went, and we could see many conductors conducting at that time with an orchestra there. So we got to see a lot of conductors that were searching for an orchestra and interviewing and things. So we and we went to a few the classes are like, how do you do a conductor search and what's the best way? And they really helped us with that because we had not had a search in a long time. I'm guessing, thinking that Curtis [Peacock] had been there, what, 30 some years, 30, 40 years. And so. But it all went really, really well. And I know we had quite a few, over 75 to 100 applicants for the position and that was, I think the concern or the worry of the board is, would, you know, who would want to come and interview here for this position? But it's like every conductor needs an orchestra. And so that's what they pointed out to us, is there there are many conductors and, you know, they needed orchestra. And that was, I think, at the time too when it was starting to change a little bit, where maybe a conductor would have a couple orchestras, two or three orchestras, because we could not afford to pay, you know, a salary where they could live, a living salary for them. And they were to have another orchestra maybe of a larger community, and then they would come to us. And that's what Jonathan did. Jonathan worked at a college, I think, in Ann Arbor, Michigan, maybe? He conducted an orchestra there, and then he would fly in and conduct the week of the concert and he would fly in and conduct here. And that seems to be the norm now for orchestras our size, because I know I went through the conductor search several times. Even when I was with another organization, I still was part of the the conductor searches. I was part of Matthew Savery's conductor search. And also we just hired Christopher Dragon. And I'm now on the board of directors for the last ten years of the Wyoming Symphony as a board member now. So I've kind of come full circle and seen, been through the process a few times and be able to help them, you know, go through those searches. Rebecca: Yeah. Did I hear you right? You've been on the board for the past ten years. Holly: Yes, I have. Can't believe it. Yeah. So, yeah, I've been through. Yeah. Search for Matthew was our conductor. And then just most recently, this last year was Christopher Dragon. And he's the associate conductor of the Colorado Symphony. So it's been perfect and wonderful that he can zip up here, you know, and be our conductor also. Rebecca: So you have seen a change from a community orchestra to a more or less semiprofessional orchestra that is largely imports and many of them not from Wyoming and all those associated changes. Holly: Yes, I've been able to see all of that and there's growing pains in all of that. And it's just, it's, you know, that's the question, is how do you grow and how do you include. But I know that for the foremost, we are wanting the Wyoming musicians to be playing in the orchestra. And I know that there's consideration and thoughtfulness into wanting Wyoming musicians. But with our size of our state and with the, you know, not as many musicians available in Wyoming, yes, we have quite a few orchestra members that are from outside the state that come from Colorado and surrounding states. But I'm not sure what the percentage is right now. That would have to be something the office would know. �Rebecca: So I looked into that a little bit when I did the article, and it's still—the article on the history of the symphony for WyoHistory.org. So I think it worked out to about a third out of state people, some of them who had Casper or Wyoming roots. Then maybe a third Casper people and a third non Casper, but Wyoming people. That's just a guess. That [was] not quite as drastic a transition as I thought. Holly: Right. Right. And I think that was the worry. I know back when I was there also, that was always the worry of, you know, you want it to be a community orchestra with the musicians living here. But Wyoming being the least populated state is kind of a real challenge to find those musicians to grow the quality of the orchestra and to still be involved in the community. So, so it seems to be working. That's what I think is wonderful. And I know the quality of the orchestra is really, I've been impressed with the the growth there and everything. So, and they still really do care. They play, when they play, they play for the Wyoming Symphony. So I, I think they love us and they love Casper and they love playing with the Wyoming Symphony. From what I gather. Rebecca: I've kind of inferred or gathered that Christopher Dragon has attracted a fair number of pretty good Colorado musicians one way or another. Is that right, would you say? Holly: I think so. I think he has. I mean, he travels all over the country and is from Australia originally. And so, and he's done very, very well with the Colorado Symphony. And I think in his conducting and travels, that knowledge and that collaboration that he has done there and the partnerships has helped us, I think, also get some quality musicians, you know, that he would know of or whatever. And that, brings that knowledge, everything to us and helps our organization also. It seems like it's been a great partnership. Rebecca: Well, from what I can tell, from having interviewed musicians, the symphony here seems to be, Christopher Dragon seems to be the one that they have liked the most out of all the conductors that they've played under in the Wyoming Symphony. Holly: Wonderful. Yeah, I, I kind of have got that same thought on that. Also, they, they seem to really enjoy him and want to play their hearts for him, you know? So I think it's all working well. And we are in the process right now of searching for an executive director. Rachel Bailey was with us for ten years and now she has gone on to another position. So I'm involved in the search also for the executive director right now. On that committee. Rebecca: So when did Rachel resign? Holly: She left a month or so ago. Couple of months ago, maybe. She is now with the Wyoming Food Bank, I think. Rebecca: So you haven't been without an executive director all that long? Holly: Yes, she's been there a long time. And I, I just thank her for all of her service. And for me, it was just a pure joy to see, you know, when you have an amazing director and, you know, executive director and an amazing conductor and how it all just seems like it was, it all came together and it was all working so well. And the symphony is really in a good place, I think, for the next step. ... It's just, is financially well, is doing well. I think we just gave a raise to the �musicians and looking forward to, we're hoping that at some point to get a new hall that I know they're working like crazy on raising money for the Lyric to have, us, the symphony, to have a true home and they have their own hall. So that's one thing I know that I'm very excited about and I am hoping that happens because, I think, and see as it's wonderful is, still, it's a place there at the NC high school [Natrona County High School] needs their stage and needs their hall for their activities and things. And it's very, very hard to plan ahead more than a year to get the quality of guest artists and booking and everything with this, with the challenge of not getting the dates that we need. So I know that's been a huge challenge. So I'm hoping in this next stage that we'll have a new hall in the next five, ten years here and [that] would be wonderful. Rebecca: And the Lyric is the old Iris Theater Building? Holly: Yes, it is. There's a wonderful plan. And Lindsey Grant is the executive director and they're in a quiet phase right now talking to donors all over the state and raising money for that hall. And I've seen the plans and I think it would be about a thousand seat hall and it would be fantastic acoustics and would be able to bring in all kinds of Broadway shows and bring in all of those performances. And from the local community, all the kids, all the kids’ shows and dance and ballet and opera and all those things where they don't have a home. So I think it would be a wonderful addition to Casper and of course, a home for the symphony. Rebecca: I'm sure that the scheduling has been one of the hardest things, having to share the space with someone else who has priority. Holly: Exactly. And I know it's prevented us from maybe getting some of the artists that we would like to get. I've heard about that these last years, as you know, trying to get these these guest artists booked way out. And for us to not have dates, that's been a real problem. So I'm hoping that in the future that would be another just amazing thing for the symphony to have a hall and and the downtown is just exploded with energy and excitement with David Street Station. And it's right there across the street. And I think it would be a, a wonderful asset for Casper and for our community. Rebecca: Now, I remember I interviewed a past executive director who mentioned that the guest soloist could not rehearse with the orchestra, I think it was on Friday night, in the [concert] hall. He had to rehearse with them in the Natrona County High School band room because [there] was a talent show or something going on. That's the soloist’s nightmare, you know, not being able to get a feel of the acoustics of the place you're going to be performing in until the performance. Holly: Oh, my gosh. Yes. And those kinds of things happened. And this was just so hard, is to work around that kind of thing. And, you know, those high school kids have so many things going on over there, all the plays and all the, you know, their orchestra, you know, their musicians and all the things that they have going on in the high school. It's just really a tough thing for everybody to try to, and I think we're one of the last, the symphony’s one of the last to be able to even use that hall because it's, they're so busy with what they need there. Rebecca: Yeah. Now the year of the remodel, [remodel of NCHS auditorium] the symphony performed at Casper College, I believe. Holly: Yes. �Rebecca: But it was a small hall, right? Holly: It was a smaller hall. So we had to do two performances to be able to get the amount of people. We did an afternoon, a Sunday afternoon performance and a Saturday night performance. And the acoustics are beautiful there. But it was, it has challenges also with the seating and with the two days. So, yeah, it was, so I know the hall renovations are beautiful and everything for this. I think now the time has come, I feel, for for Casper to have our own hall, you know, [here] in the middle of the state. We have such a great orchestra and we have so many organizations that could use a hall with really quality acoustics and great seats and, you know, to be able to have a glass of wine or whatever with intermission or beforehand or after in the beautiful lobby area, which I think would be wonderful. Rebecca: Well, that would certainly solve any problem there might ever be for where to have the after concert reception. Holly: Exactly. We've been moving things around all over the place, the different restaurants and venues and yeah, it just I think it would be wonderful for the symphony to have a home to call, you know, its own and and to have the quality of the stage and enough room. And for ballets, we'd like to do more ballet and opera and those kinds of things, but we just don't have the room at NC [NCHS] stage. Rebecca: Right. The only time, well, I remember playing in the so called pit for Nutcracker and various things like the Messiah. [By George Friedrich Handel, late 17th and early 18th century German-British composer] Holly: Uh huh. Uh huh. Rebecca: Uh. We did an opera that was commissioned from some Wyoming composer on the famous lynching on the Sweetwater River of a couple of people that were innocent but unlucky. We were all on the floor between the stage and and the seats, which, if that's the best you can have, that's the best. It worked. Holly: But yeah, there's been challenges. I know quite a few challenges with all the ballet companies we've brought in and there just is not the room and and the orchestra does not have the space in the pit. And it's been challenges all around. And so this new hall would have all those things and. And the quality and the you know, the kinds of performances we could do and bring in would be incredible. Rebecca: Yeah. There was an actual pit for the orchestra at Central Wyoming College, I think it is. We did Swan Lake [ballet by Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, 19th century Russian composer] up there one time on a runout. I'm not sure if you were the executive director then or not, but it's an amazing difference to have all your own space and the only person in the pit that can see the stage is the conductor. So you are removed from the temptation of glancing at the stage when you're not supposed to anyway. As a musician, it's much better all around. Holly: Mm hmm. Right. Definitely. So yeah, I've seen the, I've seen a lot of full circle things with the symphony and it's just been wonderful to see it grow and, and just thrive. So it's, been �one of my joys just to be part of the orchestra as a director, executive director, and then to be a board member. Rebecca: I think I wanted to ask you, although you may already have answered this question. Events, first fundraising, and then after that, the musical events that jump out at you as being an absolute pinnacle, a high point of your time, of your relationship with the symphony. Holly: What would those be? What were some of the high moments? High moments? Rebecca: Yeah. And for example, let's start with fund raising. Holly: Okay. Fund raising. Well, I really enjoyed just bringing people together in the community. I kind of got crazy with the Symphony Balls, and we didn't have a place to hold them because we didn't have a home. So we would find these crazy venues. And I remember the Boogie Woogie Bugle Ball was one of the highlights for me as far as events, was held out in the hangar, the Jim Good hangar out at the airport and people dressed in World War II dress. We had a 20 piece big band and we had big American flags and planes that we dined amongst. And it was that, the light was filtering in on those, on everybody. And it was just a stunning evening. It was really fun and people enjoyed that. So that was one of the highlights. And then I did a Bel Air ball in the White Mountain Chevrolet, Bel Air. We had Bel Air cars and they cleaned up the bays where they work on the cars and we actually had people there and that was really fun. Then there was an old abandoned building, the Prairie Publishing building. We did the Bootlegger Ball there and it was, a our challenge was, there was no heat and it snowed that night and we had to have [indistinguishable] codes to get in. People had to whisper a code to get in, you know, be like in the Prohibition era. And we were a little chilly in there. We were in our flapper outfits and dresses and things. So it was, it got a little crazy trying to find some. And then I finally found the Industrial Building [at the Casper Fairgrounds] and we had the Buckaroo Ball there and the Buckaroo Ball which for many years I think, and we had wagons, covered wagons and tepees in there. We had enough room and people dressed up in their fancy western gear and outfits. And so we had a lot of fun with, with the B’s, the B, the Buckaroo Ball, Bootlegger Ball and all those and people seemed to really enjoy coming out, having a great time and raising money for the symphony. And of course, the dream house stands out. There is one of the, the highlights. The [Christmas] Symphony Home Tours were always fun. People opened their homes in the community and merchants would decorate and interior designers would make it wonderful. And I think people really enjoyed shopping and seeing something for the holidays and that was really fun. Truly enjoyed some of the, you know, those concerts, those special concerts. I think Mark O'Connor probably was one of my highlights as far as. Kind of a transcendence of the music was so beautiful. And he played, it just, it was just magic. So that was one of my favorite concerts, along with the Broadway stars from New York. That was a sellout. I loved the ballets. Those all stand out in my mind, as you know ... we did some photo choreography above the symphony was always fun. We did Billy the Kid and Rodeo Copland, [Aaron Copland, 20th century American composer and conductor] and that was so Wyoming and western. And we had this beautiful scenery above the symphony as the symphony played. I truly enjoyed those. And the kids concert scene, the little kids enjoyed the Magic Circle Mime Company along with the symphony. And I think we did Peer Gynt also [opera by Edvard Grieg, 19th and 20th century Norwegian composer and pianist], for the holidays and they loved that as well as Amahl and the Night Visitors [Christmas opera in one act, by Gian Carlo Menotti, 20th century Italian composer] was �something different. We tried to collaborate with all kinds of the community. And I know that one week we collaborated with some folks at Casper College, several of those so, so truly it was an enjoyable, magical job. And I loved it and loved the music. And I have wonderful memories of all of it. Rebecca: That's really great to hear. This has been so very interesting. Do you have anything else to, I know, I have one more question for you. You have been on the watch, so to speak, you've been involved with the symphony, one way or another, from the time when there was a conductor that lived in the community through the times, now, since Jonathan [Shames, the first non-resident conductor], when the conductor was not a resident. Right. So can you comment on that, that transition or that trend and the difference and so on? Holly: Right. And yeah, I, I had really thought when we went through the search, I really had thought we were going to try to find someone that would live here. But it seems like it's worked. It seems like it's worked out okay. I think the conductors coming in as part of their contract to come in other times also and to get involved with the community. And so I know all the different conductors have been at the Rotary ... you know, other fundraising events in the community and then on TV and radio. And I think, you know, the community still has gotten to know those conductors and feel they’re, and I think they feel part of of Casper. And they bring to us too also all their experience and knowledge from somewhere else, too. So I think it's a kind of a double edged sword, but I think it seems like it's worked. And that's what other orchestras are going through in the changing times and. So it would be interesting if I don't hear that happening as much where they're living in a community the size of ours. And so that way we, we benefit, I think, in some ways. And then maybe, you know, not as much, maybe if they were living here, but it seems like it's worked. Rebecca: Good. I'm really glad to hear that. I keep thinking of things, and one of the things that I have thought of is Christopher Dragon, is fairly young. As conductors go, would you say? Holly: One of our youngest. Yeah. Rebecca: Susan Stanton, who has played violin with the orchestra forever, told me that he was in a video that went viral where he was dressed up as a dinosaur. Holly: Yes. Rebecca: Jurassic Park. He's just, he's not a dignified guy. It's like he's not impressed with his own dignity at all, which I think is great. Do you have anything to say about that or what the board, does the board know about it or. Holly: Yes, they do. And that's was what the, when we were looking at all of the different videos and things, when we were interviewing and we had over 100 and some applicants from all over the world and and his stood out because that was one of the reasons, we saw the video of him in the dinosaur costume and I think was for Jurassic Park, is a John Williams that did the score I think for Jurassic Park and that he was willing to do that. And I think he's dressed up in Star Wars outfit something. And just recently we had Pops in the Park and we did a Queen cover band. So the Queen was a group out of Canada and they played a lot of songs by Queen [British Rock band], of course. And he put, he sported a mustache, too, like Freddie Mercury. So he is a �very playful, is very fun and playful. And I think he really loves what he does and he has an amazing energy. So I think we are so lucky to have him and and he really loves the music, loves the orchestra, loves the musicians and loves what he does. And it's very apparent when you see his energy when he conducts. And so I truly invite everyone to come out. I think we have a great season coming forward and yeah, just come and the Pops in the Park is another just wonderful thing that I forgot to mention that we used to play up at Bear Trap Festival [held annually at Beartrap Meadow on Casper Mountain] up there was a Bluegrass festival and I remember bringing the symphony up there under a tent and everybody's like, What was the symphony doing up there? And Oh my gosh, there was so much crossover there too. And people just loved going up to the mountain to hear the symphony play and so many other musicians, you know, people and community members that maybe had not heard the symphony got to hear them up there. And the same is true with the Pops in the Park with, we got an extension on the Washington Park band shell, we wrote a grant for that. And so then I think the eclipse [solar eclipse of August 2017, when Casper was in the path of totality] was one of our first times when we had the extension so that the orchestra could play and we had thousands of people there for that. And and I think we had close to 1600 to 1700 people just recently for the Pops in the Park. So I think that's going to be, is becoming soon, a wonderful favorite tradition with the food trucks and when the beautiful summer evening to be outside in and hear the symphony orchestra is just a wonderful treat. So it's a [indistinguishable] I think wonderful things that's happened, that's happening, you know, with the symphony and reaching out to the community and being part of our community is, is, you know, and the orchestra is beloved, as far as I can tell. And people enjoy what the symphony brings to Casper and the quality of life. What would Casper be without the Wyoming Symphony? It would not be [the same]. Is a wonderful place, that's for sure. Rebecca: Yeah. And from rather humble beginnings as the Casper Civic Symphony quite a number of years ago. Holly: Right. Right. And. Yeah. And it's just exciting to see, you know, and I just, I look forward to what's next for the symphony. And I think they're growing and doing well. And professional in acting the way they act and the way they play and the way they care. So I think that's just a wonderful kudos to the musicians and our community and our state. And I look forward to seeing what's next. Rebecca: Okay. Do you have anything else you would like to tell us? Holly: Well, I think we've covered a lot. I'm guessing one thing I noticed on my mind when I was looking at the symphony and what I’ve done. I'm really, really proud of that. We started an endowment also for the symphony. So I think our endowment, our goal is to reach a million, you know, which would generate over $40,000 a year for operations. So I know that the board is working on that, trying to raise the endowment as far as. But that was something back in the day that we really wanted for sustainability for this orchestra. That was so important to have an endowment and it's growing and growing every year. So it's just a wonderful asset to have for the symphony. Rebecca: Yeah. It's always best when an organization can get away from hand-to-mouth funding to something a little bit more secure. �Holly: Exactly. And I'm also, I also serve on the Wyoming Arts Council, and I just am proud to always talk about what the symphony is doing and how well they're doing. When I report and I see what's going on all around the state, too, so I've been on the Arts Council for ten years also. And, and it seems like the arts are alive in Wyoming and doing well. And we've got the Teton Music Festival. We've got, I think the Powder River Symphony is still playing, the orchestra here. There's the symphony in Cheyenne that's doing well and the University of Wyoming [symphony orchestra]. So it's encouraging that all these music organizations are still doing well and and continuing to bring beautiful arts and music to Wyoming. Rebecca: It's an achievement for a sparsely populated area to have different cultural things going on. Holly: I think that's all I had. Well. Rebecca: I really appreciate your giving us all this time today. It's been great. Holly: Thank you. I really enjoyed talking with you, Rebecca, and thank you for all your beautiful music that you brought to us also. Rebecca: Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource WyoHistory.org Wyoming Symphony Orchestra Oral History Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/</a> Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2022-2023 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource WyoHistory.org; Rebecca Hein Language A language of the resource ENG Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NCA 01.i.2022.02 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound; Text Description An account of the resource Audio files and transcripts created and edited by Rebecca Hein and students at Casper College during an oral history project with players of the Wyoming Symphony Orchestra. The oral histories were conducted by Hein between 2022 and 2023 and are a part of Wyohistory.org publishing project. Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data M4A Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Holly Turner Wyoming Symphony Orchestra Oral History Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/</a> Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1922-09-13 Description An account of the resource Audio file and transcript for oral history interview with Wyoming Symphony Orchestra player Holly Turner. This interview was conducted by Rebecca Hein for Wyohistory.org on September 13, 2022. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Becky Hein; Holly Turner Language A language of the resource ENG Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. WyoHistory.org Wyoming Symphony Orchestra Oral History Project, NCA 01.i.2022.02 WyCaC US. Casper College Archives and Special Collections. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NCA 01.i.2022.02_Holly_Turner_9-13-22_Condensed Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3 https://caspercollege.cvlcollections.org/files/original/51fed0e006770376d2ef43600afd05df.m4a aecbb17012547bbf1eb69467d6e5a03d https://caspercollege.cvlcollections.org/files/original/a281046467fab130405b6a85679684a1.pdf a23697ad43ed520c1bb11f73c1478c68 PDF Text Text Wyoming Symphony Oral History Project Rebecca Hein interviewing John Stovall, April 6, 2023 Date transcribed: July 12, 2023 John: A sister too. Rebecca: Go ahead. John: Do you have a sister also? Rebecca: A year older than me, Barbara, she plays violin. John: Yeah. Yeah. Rebecca: Okay Well, it's not often that I have the luxury of having been able to read somebody's bio before doing these, these interviews. John: Uh huh. Rebecca: So I have some questions related to that. Anyway, let's start with your name. Well, first of all, thank you for making yourself available for this interview. John: Oh, certainly. Yeah. My pleasure. Rebecca: Okay, great. Let's start with your name, your instrument, and how you came to play that instrument. John: I'm John Stovall, and I play the double bass and I studied piano early on, started piano when I was five years old and was steered to the cello when I was in fifth grade. But it didn't take with me and I played sports instead. And then in ninth grade, I started playing the bass. And I initially started studying with Rex Eggleston. Rebecca: Okay. I didn't know he taught bass. John: Yeah, he was. He was the general, do you remember Rex? Rebecca: Oh, very well. Yeah. John: Yeah, Because he, I think he started the the string orchestra programs in the public schools in Casper. And he was, you know, he was a general music educator, and he did, he he got me started on the bass. Rebecca: I see. Okay. And, and sorry, what grade were you in when you switched? John: I was in ninth grade. I think it was, it was right before I went into ninth grade. I, it was during the summer. Rebecca: Okay. And were you then and are you now a French bow bass player or a German bow? John: Yes, I am a French bow player. �Rebecca: Okay. Could you go into the, just a little bit for the non-musicians who might be listening to this recording? John: Yeah, there are two different styles of of bows for the bass and one is called the French bow, and that's normally referred to. That's what cellists play with, with the French. bow. It's the French bow grip, which is the, the hand is over the top of the, the stick of the bow and the other bow that bass players use is called the German bow. And it's also referred to as an underhand grip because you, you are holding the bow from underneath the stick instead of on top of the stick and that is used, German bow is definitely more prevalent in European orchestras, but in America, in the American orchestras and American bass players there, there's been quite a barrage of German bow players and a lot of the new players coming up are German bow players. Rebecca: Okay, thanks. Now let's, let's go on to whatever you whatever you remember about before college, being in Casper, playing in the Youth Symphony and the Civic Symphony. John: Yeah, well, you know, I studied with with Rex for probably a year, and then I was steered toward Dale Bohren. And I don't know if you remember Dale. Rebecca: Sure. John: But he, he taught me during high school. And Dale, he was very gifted. And Dale went to the Congress of Strings. I remember he was. And that was a national string program where he played in an orchestra. And he, it was sponsored by the Music Union. [Casper chapter] And his experience out there kind of inspired me because he had a chance to, you know, play with with a lot of different players from around the country because it's a national program and so he you know, he was hip to what was going on in the the bass world and music world, you know, sort of nationally. So he taught me through high school. And then he was studying with Curtis [Curtis Peacock, then the strings instructor at Casper College and also conductor of the Casper Civic Symphony and Casper Youth Symphony] at the time and my senior year of high school, I actually enrolled in Casper College because I had enough credits from high school. So my senior year was spent at Casper College and I switched to Curtis Peacock and Curtis was, was also a very inspirational teacher and amazing, he was a very good violinist, but his bass playing technique was also very good. And he really, you know, showed me a lot of good stuff on the bass and also just musically, because he was a very good musician. So my last year of college or my last year of high school spent at Casper College was with Curtis. And that, he was very helpful in actually steering me to some really, you know, top notch teachers around the country. He, he basically guided me when I finished, to my teacher, who was Stuart Sankey and in college. I don't know what you want me to say about that at this point. Rebecca: Well, I'll make a note here. We can come back to that. John: Yeah. Rebecca: You, there was still a youth symphony when you were in high school, is that right? John: Yes, The Casper Youth Symphony. Rebecca: And did you play in the Youth Symphony? �John: I did play in the Youth Symphony. And I also played in, Rebecca: Do you have memories? John: That now I also played, I have more memories from the, from the Casper Symphony. Rebecca: Okay. John: Playing in the section there. Just trying to think because, you know, Curtis was conducting at the time. So it was a good opportunity that, being in the Casper Symphony because I remember playing the Brahms Symphony Number One with Curtis. [Johannes Brahms, 19th century German composer] And that just really got me very excited about, you know, pursuing a career in music. And I think having that opportunity, you know, was definitely a launching pad. The my memories are vague about playing in the in the Youth Symphony, though, because I had more experience playing with, with the Casper Symphony and the Casper College ensembles also also because there was a string orchestra associated with Casper College that I got to play in when I was there for the year. Rebecca: Yeah, I played in it when I was in high school. I don't think it could have quite functioned without local people one way or another. John: Yeah. Rebecca: Now you've mentioned Congress of Strings. John: Yeah. Rebecca: Your bio on the Boston Symphony site says you went to Congress of Strings. John: I did. My when I was 16. I, you know, set up through the union and I won a position there. I think, I don't remember if I had to audition or how it actually worked, because it was a scholarship that that, that you had to get through the union and it entailed, it was a two month course and it was out at the University of Washington in Seattle. And so I was out there for two months and the bass teacher was actually a, was the principal bass player from the Detroit Symphony. And he you know, so he really knew his stuff. And there were, I think, six other bass players in that section, and they were all, some guys from California and I remember Texas and a couple of guys from Idaho, but they all had, you know, good teachers and there was a lot of good playing and we had good conductors and we got to do a lot of different repertoire through the summer. And so it was a great learning experience and I know even a lot of people in the Boston Symphony have actually gone through the Congress of Strings, a lot of string players. So it's sort of one of the first, you know, training grounds for for musicians hoping to to, you know, further their education. Rebecca: Right, yeah, well, I was always under the impression, although I must be wrong because you're saying there were a couple of people from different states. I always thought it was one student per state. John: But yeah, I don't remember the exact details, but it's, I remember there was a wide range of people and also there was a wide range of talent too, because I was I was low man on the totem �pole because I had just, I hadn't been playing the bass that long. I think I was 16 when I went there. And I remember there was a kid from L.A. and he was like a prodigy. That's what he seemed like to me. He, he actually I know him now. He plays in the Los Angeles Philharmonic, but he used to, instead of bass lessons, he would go and play tennis with the bass teacher. That's, that's what they would do for their lessons. (both laugh) Rebecca: Yeah, they are Congress of Strings. I remember too. I went when I was, I think, 19. I do remember being at the very back of the cello section and feeling just [that it was] the absolute best musical experience I'd ever had. John: Yeah. Rebecca: Do you remember what pieces you guys played that summer? John: Oh, I know we did a lot of string pieces like, you know, Barber, Adagio for Strings [Samuel Barber, 20th century American composer] and so I think it was mainly a string camp, if I recall. Rebecca: Yup. John: Now I have all the programs, but I don't remember what other stuff we did. But, you know, there, there's there's a quite a bit of string music that, you know, for string orchestra that we did do. Rebecca: Yeah. Okay, great, thanks. So let’s see...there had to have been a young artist competition associated with the symphony when you were in high school. John: Yes. John: I competed in it and I did not win. Trying to think who, who won, but I don't remember. I remember playing the Dittersdorf [bass] Concerto [Carl Ditters von Dittersdorf, 18th century Austrian composer; a concerto is a composition for one or more solo instruments with orchestral accompaniment] Rebecca: Okay, now let's see. Now I can go back, from Casper College you went to study with Stuart Sankey? John: Yes, at the University of Texas. Rebecca: Okay. What do you remember about that period? John: Well, that really, I mean, propelled me because Stuart used to be on the, the faculty of Juilliard, [the Julliard School of Music in New York City, one of the most prestigious music schools in the country] and he, he was in the … [NBC Symphony] Orchestra with Toscanini. [Arturo Toscanini, late 19th and early 20th century Italian conductor] So and when … [Sankey] left Juilliard, he went down to Texas. And he was a great pedagogue. And I know in his studio he had 20 bass players and he was really committed to teaching. And he really also, he did a lot of editing of music for International Music Company. And he he really was the one that that built a solid foundation for me, just as far as, you know, upping the ante on, on, on my technique and �just learning how to play the bass in general. So and I studied with him for two and a half years, or I guess it was two years at the University of Texas. And then he was actually leaving to go to Indiana University and asked me if I wanted to go there. And I decided not to. And I auditioned for the New England Conservatory in Boston and got in. So when he left Indiana, I came to Boston and finished my undergrad degree at New England Conservatory. Rebecca: Yeah, and I think your bio said that your teacher was the assistant principal of the Boston Symphony. John: Yeah, right. Yeah. Larry Wolfe was my teacher and he still is in the orchestra and he's still the assistant principal. So we, you know, we go way back together. Rebecca: Yeah, well, I noticed that in your bio, after you finished your bachelor’s, you successfully auditioned for the Houston Symphony, the New Orleans Symphony and the Indianapolis Symphony. John: Yes. Yeah, I had three, three different jobs, with the first job that I actually won was in Houston, and that was a year's position down there. And from Houston, I was, after I finished the job there, I was kind of idle just figuring out what I was going to do next. And a friend of mine was the principal bass of the New Orleans Philharmonic at the time, and they had an opening for six months. So he, I didn't actually audition, but he knew me and he said, Why don't you come down to New Orleans and play for six months, which I did, and that was a blast. And from there I was taking, actively taking auditions. But from there I auditioned for the Indianapolis Symphony and won a position there, a permanent position. But I was only there for a year and a half, and that's when I auditioned for Boston and got into the Boston Symphony. Rebecca: Okay. So looks like you were 30 years old when you got into the Boston Symphony. John: Yeah, that is correct. Rebecca: Okay. So it only took you, what, maybe 15 years to get your skills from beginning bass player to Boston Symphony. John: Yeah, that's, that's about the correct time frame. Rebecca: Yeah. And jumping from piano to a stringed instrument, that's a big jump, so I know you played piano for a long time before you took bass, but it's still, John: Yeah. Rebecca: very impressive. Yeah. So for the, for the classical music people who will be listening to this oral history later, can you tell us what pieces in general are on the audition lists for bass. John: Like, yeah, yeah I will. Most of the lists for the auditions are pretty standard and across the board for all orchestras, but with, with few variations. Well, what's interesting to me is that, you know, I was auditioning, you know, almost 40 years ago, and, you know, I'm teaching, you know, these students today and they bring in these lists and they are basically a lot of the same things that that I had to audition with. So those would be like Beethoven symphonies, like Beethoven Symphony Number Five and Beethoven Symphony Number Nine. There are a lot of excerpts for �the bass out of those two symphonies, the Mozart symphonies, Number 35, the “Haffner” Symphony, and the Symphony Number 40 also of Mozart is also a very popular audition piece. Schubert, “The Great” C Major Symphony Number Nine is also a big audition piece [Franz Schubert, 19th century Austrian composer] Richard Strauss “Ein Heldenleben” is a very popular audition piece for bass players, as is “Also Sprach Zarathustra” or 2001 The Space Odyssey as everyone—[Richard Strauss, 19th and 20th century German composer and conductor (son of Johann Strauss of “Blue Danube” fame.)] Rebecca: Yeah John: Berlioz “Symphonie Fantastique” is a very popular piece also. [Hector Berlioz, 19th century French composer and conductor] Oh, Brahms symphonies. Even any of the Brahms symphonies are usually asked on an audition as well as, you know, a solo piece of your choice. And also it's very popular on auditions for bass players, usually a movement from a Bach cello suite [Johann Sebastian Bach composed six suites for solo cello. On the bass, they are much harder to play than on the cello. The suites each have six movements, which are mostly stylized dances, except for the Prelude] And that's that's pretty much standard rep that you'll see on a, on an audition list for any of the major orchestras in America. Rebecca: Yeah, you know, it's not so very different from some cello auditions. John: Yeah. Rebecca: [That] obviously are less familiar with way back in the day. John: Yeah No, that's true. Rebecca: Yeah. Okay. Well, let's see, before we move (pauses) oh, wait a minute. Maybe backing up a little bit. I'm not sure at what point … your bio mentioned Aspen, the Aspen Festival, The Grand Teton Festival and Tanglewood. John: Yes. Rebecca: I want to cover all those. Maybe in chronological order. John: Yeah, sure. Let's see. The Aspen Festival. When I was in Texas, my first year in Texas that summer, I auditioned for the Aspen Festival, and that was under the encouragement of my teacher, Stuart Sankey, because he taught at the Aspen Festival [Summer music festival in Aspen, Colorado]. So I auditioned and I got a scholarship there my first year, and I studied with him in the summer, and then I went again the following summer and I studied with a, with the principal bass player of the New York Philharmonic. I, of course, asked Mr. Sankey if I could have permission to study with him, and he encouraged it. And this, the principal bass of the New York Philharmonic at the time was this Russian, and his name was Eugene Levinson. And he made quite a splash because he immigrated to America. And when he first came, his English was quite poor. And I remember we, where I lived in Aspen, we lived with, in a condo with three other bass players, and we all studied with him and he would come over and we would always tease him about his English because he would say, “Now use the bow like spoon.” And we could never understand what what the hell he was talking about. (both laugh) But he would, he would spend �all afternoon at our condo and, you know, we would make cookies or brownies with him. And we he was a really great teacher. And I learned a lot from him that summer at Aspen. But, but and also we, we’re friends to this day, too. Whenever we play Carnegie Hall in New York, I usually will see him. And he always asks me about Wyoming because he knew I was the kid from Wyoming. So he was very friendly. But after the Aspen experience, when I came to the New England Conservatory, the summer after my first year at New England, I auditioned for the Tanglewood Music Festival and I got into that festival. And that's, that's a highly competitive festival to get into. And they take seven bass players every year. And I went for two years and my teacher, Larry Wolfe, is also, because it's part of, the Boston Symphony summer home. A lot of the players from Boston will teach there also, so Larry was teaching at the time. And that, that really, the level of playing in the Tanglewood Music Center, the student orchestra, is just extremely high. And a lot of people that have played there play in major orchestras, like in Boston Symphony, I would say at least more than half of the people went to Tanglewood, and I know eight out of the nine bass players in this section all were at Tanglewood. So, you know, it's a springboard, you know, into national orchestras for sure. Rebecca: Yeah, Well, with the high standard it’s not surprising. John: Yeah, Yeah. The standard was really high. But then after Tanglewood that was in, I think my last year at Tanglewood was 1983 and I graduated from college at that point, and from 1983 through 1985, 88, I should say, I went to the Grand Teton Music Festival [Summer music festival in Jackson, Wyoming] and played in that festival for five summers, and that was with the the Chinese conductor Ling Tung, that was his festival, he started the festival. And that was, that was a conglomeration of musicians from around the country in major orchestras would go there because a lot of orchestras are off in the summer. So I know there were a lot of people from Houston Symphony, San Francisco Symphony, Minnesota Orchestra, Indianapolis. So there were just, you know, a lot of different people coming together from across the country playing in that orchestra. Also, the New York Philharmonic had a few people also. Rebecca: Yeah, let's back up briefly, unless you have more to say about the Teton Festival. John: Yeah, Teton Festival was really great. I mean, it was for me because it was like, you know, being home again. And it was good also because I got to play a lot of chamber music up there, which was nice, with smaller ensembles and also you get to kind of mingle with different guys from different orchestras and, you know, find out what's what's going on there. And not to mention, you know, the you know, being in Jackson for the summer is always a lot of fun. Rebecca: Mhmm. John: And so that that, that aspect of it was really great. But the music making was also very good. You know, they had, you know, really topnotch soloists . And, and the programming was always very good. And the audiences, you know, because it's such a small hall, I think it's 900 seats, you know, they would always have a full audience for the concerts, which is always, you know, inspiring for for the players. �Rebecca: Yeah. Okay. Briefly back to Aspen and maybe at Tanglewood also. But I auditioned for the Aspen, for a fellowship to the Aspen Festival a couple of times. Never did make it, I wasn't quite up to it, technically, apparently. John: Yeah. Rebecca: So can you say a little bit about the fellowship, what it covers, and what you got to do as a student there, as well as just having the private lessons and what the opportunities were for listening and so on. John: Yeah. You know, once again, that was an eight week festival and I know the scholarship cost, you know, was room and board basically. And, and your lessons and your place, you have to audition because there are several different student orchestras in Aspen. There's like a chamber orchestra, which is the, the top notch one where you get to play with, with most of the teachers playing in the orchestra also. And then there's the big festival orchestra, which is a larger orchestra and not as many teachers playing it. But I know a lot of the teachers do play in that one also. That's the one I played in. And you're you're given an op—you're given an opportunity to play a lot of different repertoire. So we would give, you know, I think at least two concerts a week in the, in the tent up there in Aspen, which was a nice setting also. But there was also a lot of chamber music that you could attend. So, you know, all of that stuff was free to students. Once again, there were master classes that you could go to and a lot, lot of different opportunities to perform for, like for us, for fellow bass players in master classes, we would play for each other, which is always helpful and, you know, lots of constructive criticism and also lots of different levels of playing. So you could see, you know, guys that were really accomplished and sort of strive for that, see what those guys are doing and, and pick their brains and yeah, that's about it. It was, you know, lots of opportunities to to play and be heard. That's what I remember. Those are my biggest memories from Aspen. Rebecca Okay. And how about Tanglewood? More about what went on there and, [Tanglewood is the famed summer home of the Boston Symphony Orchestra and its training academy, the Tanglewood Music Center, as well as the Boston Pops. Located between Lenox and Stockbridge, Massachusetts] John: Yeah, Tanglewood. That, everyone that goes out, comes out of Tanglewood, the experience is very unique because the scheduling at Tanglewood, it's eight weeks, and you are scheduled, basically your hours during the day are spent playing, whether it's with a chamber group or with orchestra or with lessons or with master classes, they really don't get, hardly give you any time to practice. You know, when you do practice, you have to do it, I mean, we would practice at night so that we would have, you know, 10, 12 hour days of, you know, rehearsals and then your own personal practice. But the, everyone that comes out of that, it's funny because you don't realize the benefits of the, of Tanglewood until September or October because you have to get away from it. And that's when you realize how much you've absorbed. And I think that's, it's funny because you talk to people about their experience there and, you know, basically everyone will say that was saying I don't remember what happened, you know, it was such a blitz. But then when you settle down and start working on your own again, you realize what you've learned, You �know, what kind of experience you've gotten out of it. And I mean, because you're working with some really, you know, top notch people and just I mean, it was, definitely expanded my my playing to a level, you know, that that got me to where I am. I mean, I really think it was, you know, totally responsible for, for getting me a job, basically. Rebecca: Okay, great. I'd like to back up just briefly. John: Sure. Rebecca: For people who might not know what a master class is in addition to, in addition to your fellow students being present, can you say a little more John: What was the last part, Becky? Rebecca: Can you say a little more about master classes in addition to the fact that there are a lot of students present? John: Yeah. Rebecca: What actually goes on? John: Yeah, in a master class. Okay. Usually master classes are held for all instruments, but usually there will be a specific instrument focus for a master class. So for us at Tanglewood, I remember one of the master classes was with Eugene Levinson, who was the principal bass of the New York Philharmonic. So he was the guest speaker. So he, a master class, he will he'll run the class. And basically what it is, maybe two or three students are asked to prepare, like either a solo piece or specific orchestral excerpts, and they will come in and with an audience they will play what they prepared for the person for the master class who was Mr. Levinson. And then he does a critique of what you're playing. He will do some playing for you, so you'll get to hear how he interprets what you just played and and provide constructive criticism. And and he will take questions about, you know, what he's done or his choice. You know, he'll use a certain fingering that you, you know, kind of helps, you know, make certain passages easier or he will suggest, you know, different bowings so that you know, to make things more musical or make it easier and you know the master classes and then you know he'll open up the floor after everyone's played. And so you really get a taste of what, you know, a different perspective, I should say, during master classes. [A fingering is a marking in the music specifiying which finger should play which note. A bowing is a marking specifying which way the bow should be drawn (to the right or to the left) on which notes] Rebecca: Well, that's very interesting because in all the master classes I've ever observed or participated in, I do not remember feedback being solicited from the attenders; it was more like a public, public one-on-one lesson. John: Yeah, that that's, that's how it starts. And it can open up. It depends who's running the class I guess. Rebecca: Yeah. �John: Because I've been doing master classes with Yo-Yo Ma before and it, he really runs them like, you know, one-on-one lessons which are, you know, very interesting to watch. You see the, you know, the transformation of a student. You know, it gives them like a magical fingering, you know, that that really changes things up. [Yo-Yo Ma, a contemporary American cello soloist and teacher; a child prodigy, performing from the age of four and a half.] Rebecca: Yeah. Okay. Briefly, I want to jump back to Casper. John: Yeah. Rebecca: Does any one performance or rehearsal or musical experience from your time in Casper jump out at you as being a high point or something you still remember? John: It's funny because I do. I do think of the Brahms symphony that I played with with the Casper Symphony. It's one of the things that really got me excited, and that was that was kind of like a high point for me. Rebecca: Yeah. Okay. And a related question for the entire scope of your career, can you identify a musical high point? John: I've had quite a few, but I think, you know, having the opportunity to play with, you know, some really great conductors like, you know, Seiji Ozawa was our was our principal conductor in Boston. A big part of my career. I mean, we played some great concerts with him. [Seiji Ozawa, Japanese conductor and music director of the Boston Symphony Orchestra for 29 years] But in particular, we had a guest conductor whose name was Bernard Haitink, and he was from the Netherlands, and we did an opera, a Wagner opera called the Götterdammerung from the Ring Cycle. [A four-opera series by late 19th century German composer Richard Wagner, based on Norse legends] And his interpretation was just like, it was out of this world. And it's a performance that I will never forget in my life. He has since died, but his interpretations, Wagner interpretations, were just unbelievable. [Bernard Haitink, Dutch conductor and violinist, and the principal conductor of several international orchestras, beginning with the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra in 1961] Rebecca: Okay, Wagner then. Very interesting. That was, Götterdammerung is one of the longer of the four, isn't it? John: Yes, it is. Yes. Rebecca: Hours or something. John: Those operas can be very long. Rebecca: (laughs) John: I know Wagner, Parsifal, and also Parsifal is like five and a half hours. I've never played any of those that were that long. Yeah, they can be. [Parsifal is a stand-alone opera, not part of the Ring Cycle] �Rebecca: Okay. All right, let's see. I have one more question before I will ask you if there's anything else you want to tell us. And that question is coming out of my own experience with the few bass players I know. They typically do not stick with classical music only, John: Yeah. Rebecca: but they go across the board into jazz and other genres. What's your experience on this question? John: (laughs) Yes, it's funny you ask because I, in high school I was, I played a lot of electric bass and I used to play with Jim Cox and the Outlaws. I don't know if you remember that name, but we would play at the Elks Club or, you know, VFW on the weekends. And I remember, my friends in high school, they would be pumping gas all week and I would play these gigs on the weekend, and that's what I was doing to make money. So I did a lot of that. And I also played with the Salt Creek Jazz Band with and if you remember, Bob Bovie, the pianist, and he was, he conducted the Natrona County High School Orchestra, [in Casper]. And I played with that band a lot on the electric bass. As an aside, I have to say that Bob Bovie was also another big influence on what good musicianship is because he was really a fine pianist and a really fine jazz pianist too. So he he taught me a lot about timing and rhythm. Then after that, I'm trying to think, Oh, I used [to] I did a lot of jamming with jazz bands in Casper, a lot of jam sessions that I think Dale Bohren actually [indistinguishable] a lot of these people like Tracy Pfau that we used to play with. So that was a lot of fun. [In a jam session, musicians typically play informally together, improvising, and planning the session as they go] And I kept the electric bass through college. And when I when I showed up in Boston and started going to school, I, I wanted to play a little bit, but there was a jazz department at New England Conservatory, and I heard so many good bass players—and jazz bass players—that I sort of figured out that unless you dedicate yourself to either jazz or classical, you know, it's really hard to do both of them well. So I dropped the electric bass at that point. Rebecca: Okay, that reminds me, somewhere along the way, did you also drop piano? John: Yeah, I played piano through my year. One year at Casper College. I studied with Paula Hitt, I think was her name, at Casper. And I played a couple of recitals up there, and then I stopped taking lessons at that point. But it was good for testing out of all the piano labs at college. [Many music majors, no matter what their major instrument is, are required to achieve a basic level of piano proficiency for their bachelor’s degree] Rebecca: Yeah. John: Which was nice. And I still, I still play a little bit of piano. My mother was also a very good pianist. She was a good influence. Rebecca: Okay. Is there anything else you would like to tell us about your life as a bass player? John: I mean, just looking back at it, it's been, you know, an incredible way to, I don't know, to get through life. I mean, making money and doing something that you really love, you know, at this level has been, you know, it's like a dream come true for me and, you know, to be a hard one �to replicate. But, you know, I feel like I've been very lucky and blessed to be able to do this at this level. And, you know, couldn't think of anything better, you know, that that would happen. I mean, there's, you think of the, you know how things work out and there's there's a lot of work involved with with being successful, a lot of work involved. And also there's there's a, bit of luck involved, too. And, you know, being the audition process is really hyper-competitive. And, you know, you’ve just got to go in the day of the audition and hope that it's your day, you know, hope that all that all the cylinders are firing. But when you do get that job, I mean, it is, there's nothing like it. And it's given me opportunities. You know, I've traveled around the world and I've played in so many different countries and seen a lot of different things, you know, played a lot of excellent music, you know, played with some of the world's best soloists and conductors. And musicians in general are a pretty particular group. And they can be very difficult and they can be a lot of fun. And just being able to experience that and, you know, have a have artistic view of how the world works has just been, you know, enriching for me, it's been a lot of just happy memories. That's that's how I view how things have worked out and just, you know, I'm grateful for everything. I never take anything for granted. Rebecca: Yeah. Now, you jogged my memory. There was a question I almost forgot to ask, which is, traveling with a double bass. I mean, I have flown with my cello enough times to know what that's like, but the bass is so much bigger and I'll just hand over to you at this point. Can you tell us about that? John: Yeah. Well, during the, you know, auditioning process, when I was out of school, you know, in college, you take an audition, you would have to buy a seat on the airplane when when you would fly with the bass to an audition. Of course, after 9/11, all of that went down the tubes. Now you have to, as a student, students have to put their bass in a trunk and, you know, check the trunk into the plane and go to the audition. It's much more difficult. But once you get into an orchestra, you're, it's, it becomes so much easier because they they have these big travel trunks that we stick our instruments in. Basically, you just have to show up at the the hall where we're playing and everything is set up for you. And they have a big stage crew. So we just, you know, they, they transport all of our belongings and concert wear and our instruments to the venue. So your job is to show up being, you know, fed and refreshed, you know, ready to play a concert on tour. And they make it very easy for you and you really get spoiled when you go on tour with the orchestra. Rebecca: Yeah. Okay. Well, I guess I'm going to stop the recording. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource WyoHistory.org Wyoming Symphony Orchestra Oral History Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/</a> Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2022-2023 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource WyoHistory.org; Rebecca Hein Language A language of the resource ENG Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NCA 01.i.2022.02 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound; Text Description An account of the resource Audio files and transcripts created and edited by Rebecca Hein and students at Casper College during an oral history project with players of the Wyoming Symphony Orchestra. The oral histories were conducted by Hein between 2022 and 2023 and are a part of Wyohistory.org publishing project. Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data M4A Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource John Stovall Wyoming Symphony Orchestra Oral History Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/</a> Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2023-04-06 Description An account of the resource Audio file and transcript for oral history interview with Wyoming Symphony Orchestra player John Stovall. This interview was conducted by Rebecca Hein for Wyohistory.org on April 6, 2023. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound; Text Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Becky Hein; John Stovall Language A language of the resource ENG Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. WyoHistory.org Wyoming Symphony Orchestra Oral History Project, NCA 01.i.2022.02 WyCaC US. Casper College Archives and Special Collections. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NCA 01.i.2022.02_John_Stovall_4-6-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource M4A https://caspercollege.cvlcollections.org/files/original/81096c186f95e0da10d7fe647b15387c.mp3 a642d6069781275a11caf3f514b85675 https://caspercollege.cvlcollections.org/files/original/bc50403fa124ec66dd28337d203989bb.pdf 5e68d872905ea0d6d8b75b72949d9ec6 PDF Text Text Wyoming Symphony Oral History Project Rebecca Hein interviewing Richard Turner, June 17, 2022 Date transcribed: July 13, 2022 Rebecca: Okay. Richard: Yeah. Rebecca: Thank you for making yourself available. Richard: Sure. Rebecca: Let’s start with your name and your instrument, and how you came to play that instrument. Richard: Oh, okay. My name is Richard Turner. I am a principal bassoonist with Wyoming Symphony. I started playing bassoon in high school. I had gone to an arts high school, and played both in band and orchestra, but I had entered the high school on bass clarinet, and was transposing bassoon parts onto bass clarinet. [To transpose is to exactly copy exactly a passage of music, starting the passage on a different pitch. Musicians do this mentally, or in writing] We were actually doing the Schubert Unfinished, [“Unfinished” Symphony, (Symphony no. 8 in B minor) by Franz Schubert, 19th century Austrian composer] and ... what I would do would be to transpose the parts beforehand on, write them out on manuscript paper. I couldn’t do it on the fly. And (clears throat) that was ending up to be a lot of sharps for a B flat instrument, [“sharp” is defined later in the interview] and I got into it and I started thinking, “you know, it’s probably gonna be easier to learn another instrument than to do this- [When a B flat instrument plays a C major scale, it will sound the same as the B Flat scale on a piano] Rebecca: (chuckles) �Richard: -every time we play something new,” and so, I managed to get hold of an instrument that was floating around the district, and, had my first lesson on December first of that year, and really took to it very very very quickly. And had no problems with getting a decent sound out of it and things like that. And so, that was in my junior year of high school, and the rest is history. Rebecca: Okay. I just want to back up. For those who don’t know, the Schubert Unfinished is the Schubert Unfinished Symphony. I don’t remember an opus number or anything like that, but, (trails off) Richard: Yeah, it’s just number eight, and it’s, I think it’s in B minor? Perhaps. Something with sharps in it. Rebecca: Ahaha! I think it’s, I think it’s B minor because I remember the opening,Richard: Uh-huh. Rebecca: -that the cello section played. Richard: Oh yeah, right. Yeah. (chuckles) Rebecca: Okay. Great, thanks. Richard: Uh-huh. Rebecca: So, let’s go on to when you joined the Wyoming Symphony Orchestra. Richard: Okay. I joined the Wyoming Symphony, actually, before I even moved to Casper, I had been living in Virginia, and was getting married, at that time, to my future and ex wife, Pamela Glasser, who was principal [French] horn in the symphony, and she was kind of selling, we were deciding, whether to live in Virginia, where I was at the time, or in Wyoming. And so I came out to-to see what Wyoming was all about, and we decided--she was teaching in junior high, I sat in on some of her classes, and said she’s way too good a teacher to risk losing, you know, not-her not being able to do that out in Virginia, and so I decided to come out here, we got married that �summer, and in September of that year, I started the move out and was looking for a job. And, I flew out for, that was back when we had rehearsals over, like, a two week span, and, flew out for the sequence of rehearsals, and then flew back and moved my stuff here to relocate to Wyoming. And I did some job searches while I was out here as well, but that was how I started with the Wyoming Symphony, and that would’ve been the 1996-97 season. Rebecca: Okay. So, let’s just briefly touch on what your day job is since I know you’reRichard: Uh-huh Rebecca: quite, yeah- (undistinguishable) Richard: Yeah, and actually that was an interesting one as well, because I am a computer programmer for the state of Wyoming, for the next five weeks at least, I’ll be retiring in five weeks, and I got that job, actually because of the symphony connection, that, Pamela was quite the social butterfly and we ended up having a dinner over at somebody’s house, and I met with [Bob] Johnson who had actually played bassoon for the Wyoming Symphony [Casper Civic Symphony] many many years ago, and worked for the Wyoming Department of Employment in the job placement area. And I said that I was out here looking for work, and he said, “Well the state of Wyoming has an opening for a contract programmer, and lo and behold, I interviewed for and got that job, and then about a month later, they had a permanent position open and I just took that interview and that was 25 years ago, and, been there ever since. For the next five weeks. (chuckles) Rebecca: Uh-huh, yeah. Okay great. Richard: Mhmm. Rebecca: Thanks for that information. Did you have something to add? Richard: Nope. That’s it. �Rebecca: Okay, what are your earliest memories from your first few years with the symphony? Richard: Earliest memories were a much more leisurely rehearsal schedule that was, we had a two week cycle which was, I want to say it was Monday-Wednesday-Friday, or maybe it was Wednesday-Friday, and then Monday-Wednesday-Friday the following week with a concert on Sat- dress rehearsal and concert on Saturday, and that put me in a position where I could, had a much less nerve-wracking experience to get a sense of what the conductor tempos were gonna be, and who I was playing with at what time, and then, so on and so forth. It was probably a bit of a synthetic experience. I had freelanced in Houston, back in the early eighties, and, we had kind of a standard (clears throat) standard job package was, called it three and two, which was three rehearsals two performances, and they were generally packed in together and you’d probably do that in the span of a few days, then you’d have two rehearsals one day or something. But that was many years before I came out here. I was doing that regularly, and so it kind of gave me a chance to reintegrate with regular orchestral playing. I had played in orchestras in Virginia and I had lived in New York for a while before that, and I had-was-was still playing, but the rigors of pulling together concerts pretty regularly was a challenge, and so that rehearsal schedule really helped. We did some interesting literature back in those days. We played up in Beartrap [Bear Trap Meadow County Park on Casper Mountain] for instance, and that was usually an all-America thing with a lot of Copland [Aaron Copland, 20th century American composer and conductor] and stuff like that. I had been fortunate enough to be asked to play on one of the local musician recitals that they did one concert per season, was featuring local artists, and so we’d do a concerto or something, [A concerto is a composition for one or more solo instruments with orchestral accompaniment] and I ended up playing Mozart’s Concerto for that, �and that was a tremendously wonderful experience, so. There were some good times back then. I remember a wonderful principal cellist. Rebecca: (chuckles) Thanks. Richard: (chuckles) Rebecca: So, let’s just back up. Can you clarify a little bit your reference to Beartrap? Richard: Beartrap is a summer festival held here in Casper, usually in beginning of August, if I got it right. It’s a- kind of a big deal, evidently, in the bluegrass circles, and so most of the music that they have this bluegrass sort of, the symphony would play, pretty much every year for several years, for that festival. They’d set up a big tent and then we would play symphonic literature for about an hour, and the audience would, you know, listen to their bluegrass. Turn around, listen to the orchestra. Turn back around and listen to the bluegrass, so. (laughs heartily) That’s Beartrap. [Bluegrass music is a genre of American music that developed in the Appalachian region of the United States] Rebecca: Right. The top of Casper Mountain in Beartrap Meadow. Richard: I’m sorry? Rebecca: On top of Casper Mountain isRichard: Yes. Rebecca:-Beartrap MeadowRichard: Yeah, Beartrap Meadow is, Rebecca: Yeah. Richard: County park I guess it is. Rebecca: Right, it’s a public place. Okay, great. So do you have any details about your performance of the Mozart Bassoon Concerto with us in the 90s? �Richard: I believe that was the 1999 season. Want to say it was in the-uh, no-it might’ve been in the ‘98-’99 season. It was in the spring. Actually, myself and the then principal clarinet, (clears throat) James Romain, R-O-M-A-I-N, was, he played the Glazunov saxophone concerto, and then I did the Mozart, and I had never played, or have never played, before or since, a concerto with an orchestra, so that was a nice experience. [Alexander Glazunov, 19th and 20th century Russian composer] Rebecca: Okay, so then let’s move to the time when there was no longer a resident conductor with the orchestra, but switched to having, I believe it was Jonathan Shames, coming in? Richard: Jonathan Shames was the first non-resident conductor, maybe in the first place, first conductor in the orchestra’s history. I would not swear to that, but I would be very surprised if that’s not a true statement. Rebecca: Oh, it is true. Richard: And he was, at that time, coming in from Michigan. I think he was here for three seasons? And had taken a job in Oklahoma, at the very end of it, and his responsibilities in Oklahoma precluded him to staying on as the music director here. Some of the things that we had done with him, I remember we did a Beethoven Ninth Symphony with him, and played that. We did a runout where we’d go and play at a-travel, play, come back. Played that in Lander when they opened the new high school in Lander, and, so we played the Beethoven Ninth here, and then hauled everybody up to Lander, and played Beethoven Ninth there. Rebecca: (inaudible speech) Richard: I believe Holly Turner was still the director at that time the, Rebecca: Executive director. �Richard: Executive Director, at that time, and she had arranged quite a bit. We had moved-that was a very interesting time in that we, it was a period where I think that a lot of the classic rock bands were starting to-to redo some of their tunes with orchestra backing, and so we had the Moody Blues; [they] had been doing that quite a bit around the country. And, in fact it was kind of odd. I played a concert in Roanoke [Virginia], with the Roanoke Symphony, for the Moody Blues and then, shortly after coming here, played in Casper with the Moody Blues. (chuckles) And then we had also Three Dog Night and Kansas. I remember it was the three main groups we had played with. And so we were kind of drifting-not drifting-we had a very strong pops influence, and that was with Jonathan, that was around the time that we stopped going up to Beartrap, and I’m not sure if the funding had run out for that, or exactly what the details were, but he was not really keen on the pops angle. And so we did, I mean, we did quite a bit of very interesting classical works, but the pops end of it kind of stopped at that point. When he left we had a, ah! When he left we had a- the orchestra was struggling financially, and so, when hesorry, when he came here we had done a season with the, music director search, where we brought in five or six candidates from around the country. Each one of them conducted a concert. They spent time in the community, meeting the patrons and things like that. By the time he left, the finances, the orchestra, were strained, and so we did not do the music director search, but used one of the conductors who was, who the then executive director was Sherry Parmater, had worked with in Montana, met Matthew Savery, was available to come down and he he guestconducted one concert. It worked out okay, and so they brought him in-they hired him at that point, kind of without having done the music director search because they kind of simply couldn’t afford it. Rebecca: Right. �Richard: And so, he was here for, 10 seasons I believe. Nine or 10. That would’ve been roughly 2005 to roughly, [20]15, probably a little bit more than 10; 16-17-18-19-12-um, and he brought us back in. He was very in-tune with how to satisfy the crowd, as it were, and so we had a lot of interesting programming. Interesting not as a pejorative thing or anything, but- interesting in that it was really interesting. And things he found that were successful with his orchestra in Bozeman [Montana], then we would reproduce that with reasonable success here. And, I think under his tenure that the orchestra did get back on a much firmer financial footing, they had started some of their fundraisers, such as “Wine on the River,” which is where they have a large outdoor gathering by the river, and auction off wines and other things. And so that helped quite a bit. That was a very successful fundraiser. Then he did not renew his contract, after the last season he was here. Chose not to renew his contract, and we did another conductor search at that point, and selected Christopher Dragon, who is the current music director. Rebecca: Okay, so you have played under Peacock, Shames, Savery and Dragon? Richard: Yes. Rebecca: Let’s go to Dragon. How was he to play under? Richard: I’m sorry? Rebecca: Let’s start with Dragon. Let’s go backwards. Richard: Okay Rebecca: how was he to play under? Richard: He was very, very very good. He is, I will, I think I remember what all of the conductors here, what all of their instruments were. Kind of their primary instrument, before they became a conductor, and I believe one of his, at least, was clarinet. So he has a very good sense of woodwind playing. He is a very easy going, I would say. Easy going but exacting. And so we �would rehearse things over and over and over, but it, with good results I believe. And so, but even at that we stayed, it’s a very focused time and, in the-in the rehearsals and, his criticism is constructive and always given with a sense of “not to terrorize the musician.” (chuckles) Rebecca: (laughs) Richard: I mean, we had a conductor who was, will, you know, throw these little tantrums and things like that, and, which helps nothing, and actually makes you play worse. I believe, in my experience, I’ll just speak from that. There’ll be times where I will miss something and then miss it again, and then miss it again, and I’m just starting to, y’know, know up and get so bound in nerves, and defeat myself. And he’s very very good at coming up, over the [rehearsal] break and saying, “Here’s what I think you’re missing.” “Try this. Try this to work on it.” and “Relax, you’re gonna get it. It’s gonna be fine.” and it comes out okay. I mean, invariably he gives very good suggestions. I-I’ve been very happy under him. Rebecca: Well, I guess I’ll take your word for it, that this story that you just told is accurate because, you’re such a good bassoon player, it’s hard for me to fathom (chuckles) this. Richard: Oh well, I-I can-I can screw up. (laughs) Rebecca: (laughs) Well, anybody can, but, I don’t know. Well anyways. Fine. Great. Yeah, I’ve heard really good things about Christopher Dragon. Richard: Yes. Rebecca: Okay, so, if we’re working backwardsRichard: Matthew? Rebecca:- It would be back to Matthew Savery, yeah. �Richard: Matthew was a very interesting character, because, personally, I grew from his leadership. I’ll call it that. He was more, you know, as Christopher was very laid back, Matthew was, let’s say intense. (chuckles) Rebecca: Mhmm. Richard: And I know a lot of people who would just get so bound up in nerves playing for him, that it was almost like PTSD, y’know. I mean, coming out from underneath it. Some rehearsals could be really unpleasant if things weren’t going right. He again, he was also one, however, who knew what he wanted to bring out. Knew how to ask for it. I believe he eventually got it, and, like I said, I learned quite a bit, not only about playing, but about some of the [indistinguishable] things with music that we deal with, and he, I-I felt like I got along with him very very well. Rebecca: That’s good. I’m just gonna jump back to Dragon for a minute. Richard. Yep. Mhmm. Rebecca: A cellist friend of mine who still plays in the orchestra said that one of the things she really likes about Dragon is that he doesn’t waste rehearsal time telling stories. Richard: No. That was when the first conductor, when I came here. (laughs) Rebecca: Right. Richard: Did quite a bit. (chuckles) Rebecca: Yeah. Richard: And that was painful. Yeah, I will go ahead and say it. Curtis was very laid back. Curtis was, I played well under him, but, I also, actually was, kind of, section bassoonist in Rapid City (South Dakota), and when they were looking for a new conductor, he was one that applied, and had a concert series, and it kind of triggered the story time that we would get. And, that was, for �wind players, it was not only the time spent sitting through a story that was not. You’re having a hard time [unintelligible] it wasn’t what you were there to do, but, they would last so long that you’d almost need another warm-up session. And the instrument would go out of tune and so, the conductors, and in fact the three out of town conductors we’ve had, were all very, effective with rehearsal time. Such that you don’t sit there for, long periods of time and reeds dry out, and your chops [mouth; which woodwind and brass players use to play] get cold, and your instrument goes out of tune. I appreciate that a lot. (chuckles) Rebecca: Yeah, and I’ll just mention, on the positive side, I infer from everything I’ve heard about Dragon, that he respects the orchestra, and, uhRichard: I believe he does. Rebecca: Yeah. Doesn’t engage in the sort of behavior that would cause the musicians to wish they weren’t playing under them, or something like that. Richard: Yes. And that's not necessarily the case with his predecessor. So I understand. Rebecca: Yeah. I. It took me a lot of years to realize, or discover, that conducting, it’s, the people part of it is as important as the musical part of it. Richard: Which is one of the reasons why I had wished, and I still have this secret wish, that businesses would learn from conductors how to manage. Learn from good conductors, how to manage. That, Christopher could share with a small business that, y’know, as he does, sharing musical things with a business, because when you think about it, the conductor is getting a group of egos to synchronize within very tight tolerances of time. I mean, our fingers are all moving within a few milliseconds of each other, and he’s doing it with a stick. (wheezes) (laughs) Rebecca: Yeah. �Richard: Not a stick to beat us with. I mean, just a tiny stick [the conductor’s baton], and yet, that technology, and those skills, and that communication that is enough to get a large group of very diverse personalities to function as a single cohesive unit. Rebecca: Yeah, it’s tricky. Richard: Mhmm. Rebecca: I’m sure you recall from your days, long ago, Richard: Mhmm. Rebecca:-a sign on the wall in the rehearsal room that said “the conductor is always-rule number one, the conductor is always right. Rule number two, if the conductor is wrong, refer to rule number one.” Richard: (chuckles) Rebecca: So, yeah. We’re kinda stuck with whoever it is and, Richard: Yeah. Rebecca: We kind of get lucky when they are-when they are well-behaved. Richard: Mhmm. Yeah. You, appreciate it if you’ve been through, not having that. (chuckles) Rebecca: Yeah. It’s hard on the morale to play under someone that does not respect the group. Richard: Yes. Yes. Rebecca: Great. Well let’s go on now. You said something that intrigued me as a string player, and perhaps, for the historical record it will be interesting. When I was a music major at University of Wyoming for cello performance, I got, let’s see, I guess you could say lectured a lot by some of the woodwind players. Richard: Mm. �Rebecca: -because they informed me, which I did not know, it was cool to learn this, that the instrument they played was not inherently in-tune. Richard: Mhmm. Rebecca: like either clarinet or bassoon or whatever, and you push down a key, and it’s-it is not even, like the piano keyboard, you know, which isn’t, strictly speaking, in-tune because it’s equal tempered. You can play in any key, but it’s a compromise, as you know. Richard: Right. Rebecca: So, I got a real education when I was told, “Well, no, I have to adjust for just about every note I play.” Richard: Mhmm. Rebecca: “Just like you on your cello if you don’t hit the note right.” Richard: Yep. Rebecca: Could you go into that a little more? Richard: Oh, actually, I have a great story on that one. It was when I was in college, I kinda had this little, leisurely degree program, and I think that the University of Houston was supported by oil when oil was doing very well. And so I started out as a music major. I started touring with the touring arm of Houston Grand Opera, in my sophomore year, and, so I kinda missed out on a lot of spring music classes, and did that for a few years, and that company folded, so I was gonna go ahead and resume my degree, and I started thinking, “Why am I getting a degree in music?” when you don’t really need a degree to play in an orchestra. And, I’d be better served by getting a different degree, continuing to play, and if something didn’t work out I’d have the other degree to work on. And so I started becoming an engineering student. And, in the course of that, I was playing in my instrument, on the bassoon, the, middle line D [middle line of the musical staff in �bass clef; a clef is a sign, a kind of hieroglyphic, that musicians have to learn. It defines a particular line of the five-line musical staff, and it defines the note for that line—such as G—and from there, that is the reference point for locating all the other notes on the staff. Without a clef to define what note a particular line is, those five lines have no meaning at all.], and the D an octave above it, of a virtually identical fingering, but, one of those was flat [low], and one was sharp [high]. (chuckles) And I-that just blew me away that, y’know, I mean the hole is drilled in a certain place in the instrument. How can one pitch be flat and the other be sharp? And so I started rummaging around the library, and, found an article called, “The Mathematical Placement of-of Woodwind Tone-Holes.” Rebecca: Ooo, cool! Richard: I-I guess it’s fantastic, and I open it up, and it’s-it’s full of greek. (laughs) Rebecca: (laughs) Richard: And so, at the beginning of it, it says, you know, like, and this is my retelling, embellished slightly for theatric effect, but, in the first paragraph it says, “As we know from elementary acoustics…” and I’m sitting there saying, well, you know, I don’t know anything about acoustics, so I think I’m gonna find me a book on acoustics. And so I found a book on acoustics, and opened it up, and in the first paragraph it says, “As we know from elementary physics…” Rebecca: (laughs) Richard: And I said, I don’t know anything about physics. I think I’m gonna go see what I can find and go get me a physics book. Well I got me a physics book, opened it up, first paragraph says, “As we know from elementary calculus…” (laughs) okay, this is getting old, but I’m gonna get a calculus book. �Rebecca: (laughs) Richard: And so I got a calculus book, and I started going through it, and, opened it up, and in the first paragraph, it says, “If you write a small computer program, you can simulate calculus limits.” I said, I don’t know anything about computers and so I found myself a computer book, and fell in love with computers. And that’s how I became a programmer. soRebecca: Well that’s fascinating. Richard: -because two notes were out of tune with each other that, I could not figure out why, and I still to this day have no answer to that ‘cause I couldn’t get past the first paragraph of any of the books that I was reading. But on the bassoon we have a range of, it’s a pretty wide range, because we’re, like the cello, down in that lower end, and so you’ve got more audible harmonics that are practical for us. [Harmonics are defined later in this interview] And, so, we also have a couple of additional challenges though. In that, the–I’m assuming that the reason this is this way on stringed instruments, that, cellos and basses are tuned differently is because you know, the human hand kinda can’t jump that far. In the case of the bassoon, most of the holes are not drilled straight through the instrument. They’re drilled at weird angles. And it’s the placement of those holes, and the length of holes, makes it very unlikely that you’re going to, that just by the manufacturing process, are going to get the hole in the right place for the right [indistinguishable] to make that note come out in-tune. And then also by the acoustics of the instrument, the overtone series did not comport with equal temperament very well, as we all kind of find out. And, so, even if they could drill them perfectly, it still wouldn’t sound right. And so we’re always having to adjust, and that’s one of the reasons why I kind of laugh at my colleagues, who make a big deal out of getting the A, for the tuning note, because it’s like, where we have roughly half of the piano range we can play on the bassoon, and so I would play my A, �get it kinda where I know where it was, and say okay, one down, 43 to go. [The standard piano keyboard has 88 keys] Rebecca: Ahahah! Richard: ‘cause every pitch is going to be-you just can’t blow it-you’ve got to blow it and then adjust it, and then once you’ve adjusted it, you’ve got to adjust to everybody else around you. Because it doesn’t sound any good-you can be perfectly in-tune, but if everybody else is a few cents sharp, then, you’re gonna be flat, Rebecca: Right. RIchard: So. Did that answer that? Rebecca: No, that’s fine. It generated some more notes and questions, but, let me just jump back to the term(s) flat and sharp. Richard: Sure. Rebecca: I’d like you to define flat, and define sharp, both in terms of sound and notation. Richard: Oh! Well, I suppose, notation, when we would say flat, in terms of the twelve note scale that builds up Western music, a flat would be a twelfth of an octave, which is a note that sounds really similar to the-all the other notes who are an octave apart. (chuckles) This is, you’ve asked a very difficult question here. but that flat is lower, lower than one twelfth of an octave, lower than the note that you are flat from. So we say that we’re playing a C, and we go down a half step, which happens to be in Western music, that happens to be a B, then, that would be a twelfth of an octave lower than the C that you started on. And, similarly, sharps would be a twelfth of an octave higher than [cuts out] Rebecca: You’re cutting out. Can you say something? I don’t know what’s happened to the audio, but you’re suddenly very faint. �Richard: Oh, let me see. I probably bumped it because I was having a hard time with that. (laughs) (inaudible talking) (audio buzzes) [pause to resolve technical difficulties] Rebecca: Okay, so, something occurred to me as you were talking about the bassoon was that, people who don’t know anything about it might be inferring that there are holes in the instrument that you put your fingers over, but that isRichard: Yes. Rebecca: -isn’t true, right? RIchard: That is true. It’s-woodwinds are, and of which the recorder is one that most people are familiar with, they change pitch by having holes drilled periodically through the length of the instrument. And those holes are, by having those holes placed, you, and lifting up fingers, you effectively make the length of the instrument shorter, which produces a higher sound. Rebecca: That’s a really great explanation because that’s really what happens on a string instrument when we put down our fingerRichard: Yes. Rebecca:-the string is shorter. So the pitch is higher. Richard: Mhmm. Rebecca: Fascinating. now I wanna tell you a brief story, I hope it’s not a waste of time, because this is something I really don’t understand about the bassoon. Especially with the involvement of a reed. Richard: Okay. Rebecca: The reed being just for the, well, you describe the reed. �Richard: Bassoon and oboe are both double-reed instruments, and double-reed is contrasted with clarinet and saxophone, which are single-reed instruments. And, with the single-reed instrument, the sound is produced by a piece of cane, the reed, vibrating against a fixed surface that’s part of the instrument in the case, in the clarinet and the saxophone, that’s the mouthpiece. And that vibration, as you blow air across it, causes fluctuations in air pressure, which are then resonated by the body of the instrument. Just the fact that the kind of, the length of the tube dictates the frequency at which that flipping, flapping back-and-forth of the reed, those variations of pressure, resonate, and then they transmit through the air to the listener’s eardrum, which, likewise, vibrates, and through the miracle of hearing, we perceive it as sound in our brains. And so that’s, in a nutshell, how clarinets work. Bassoons work in a very similar way, only instead of a reed vibrating against a fixed mouthpiece, the reed actually vibrates, there are two reeds, that vibrate against each other, and that produces the distinctive sound that they make, and also, the distinctively low bank accounts that double-reed players have from having to buy all the stuff to make their reeds. (laughs) Rebecca: (laughs back) The fact that you have noooo free time because[inaudible talking over each other] Richard: That was my college ritual, was that I had a 12-hour day beyond classes, and it was four hours practicing, four hours listening, and four hours reed-making. And that was my, that was my life. Rebecca: Okay, the sound got swallowed up on the last thing. Did you say four hours reedmaking? Richard: Reed-yes. Correct. Making, so, the process- after a certain point, the reeds that one goes down and buys at a music store, are really not adequate. They are a sort of one-size-fits-all. You �need something that really kind of tapers to your physical characteristics, your concept of sound, and your concept of music in general. And, so, one of the things, and it usually happens in college, that students will do, is make their own reeds, and you will start from a certain, a given point. There are several starting points that you can, you use, that are just purchasing from somebody else who does the work, and then finishing it. And, so, we’ll-like right now, myself in the last four or five years, I’ve started taking from cane that is, just in little tubes of bamboo that you would see in like a bamboo pole. And I take that and shave out the inside of it, shave the bark off of it to rough it out, and then shape it into the characteristic bassoon reed shape. And, then scrape it down a little further to get the refinements and thickness of the-of the blade, and make bassoon sounds. And so we have, I also refer to it as a microphone reed because the tolerances are pretty amazing, and, length of the bassoon blade is about an inch and an eighth, and the depth of the thickest part is about 40 thousandths of an inch, 30-40 thousandths of an inch, and at the thinnest it’s about three thousandths of an inch. So we’re generally, scraping it down with like sandpaper. So, but, it makes for a very tedious time. (laughs) Rebecca: (laughs) Yeah. Okay I wanna jump to the side a minute andRichard: Okay. Rebecca:- ‘cause I-I thought I understood this at the time that I learned it, what I’m about to describe. I understood it in terms of strings, and vocal cords, and, say, a column of air like you would get in an organ, or something like that. Richard: Mhmm. Rebecca: I don’t think I understood it in terms of the other instruments of the orchestra, so, it was an acoustics course that I took as an undergraduate student. sort of an idiot course for music majors, �Richard: ‘Kay. Rebecca: -and the teacher would give a demonstration of what happens, so there’s a natural process when you get something vibrating, whether it’s a string, or a vocal cord, or a column of airRichard: Mhmm. Rebecca: -Which, the, the vibrating entity wants to divide itself at certain points, Richard: Right. Rebecca: -can be at a very easy point, a halfway point which is the octave, Richard: Mhmm. Rebecca: [cuts out] the one third point I believe, or, at the one quarter point, which is two octaves higher, and the one third point, which is, I think a fifth up, anyway Richard: Right. Rebecca: Getting a little technical, but, he demonstrated this at the at the front of the room and he did not say anything about instruments or anything, but it hit me as a revelation, Oh! This is something I’ve been dealing with ever since I picked up the cello. Richard: Mhmm. Rebecca: We call it harmonics. Richard: Right. Rebecca: You touch the string in a certain place and it doesn’t screech, it sounds, it sounds an octave higher, or it sounds an octave lower, or whatever. Richard: Hm. Mhmm. Rebecca: But, how that translates into, say, a bassoon or an oboe, a double-reed instrument, you kind of said it already, but I’d like you to repeat it- �Richard: Sure. Rebecca: -in terms of the reed and whether you get a column of air vibrating through the instrument, or something like that. Richard: And so the the column of air in the instrument, is, and I’m gonna start using terms that I ought not use, but, I believe that that’s a, standing wave, sort of a standing wave. That-that length of air that makes the column, will naturally resonate sounds much like a string would. I think that it’s kind of a, maybe a better way to look at it is, rather than if you had, on the cello you could move your fingers up the fingerboard and shorten the string that- [cuts out] if you were [cuts out] a pan cello, which is sort of the cello equivalent of a pan pipe, where you had different- Instead of moving your fingers on the fingerboard, to shorten the strings, we had fixed-length strings that you then bowed to make them vibrate the air so it vibrates the ear of the listener. Each one of those would be successively shorter. And so that’s kind of the same idea that woodwind instruments have. In fact, that may be a good transition, because if you think of the pan pipe, if you can picture what the pan pipe looks like, or a pipe organ, that it’s the set of tubes of different lengths that resonate at different frequencies. And with woodwind instruments, they get that effective length by putting their fingers down. So instead of moving around eight different pipes, you just lift up eight different fingers. To get that-that same effect of playing pitches and [cuts out] Rebecca: Okay. I’m having trouble visualizing this. Richard: Okay. Rebecca: You’ve got the bassoon, or the clarinet or the oboe, or whatever, and the fewer the keys are pressed down the longer the column of air? �Richard: No. No. The holes interrupt the column of the overall length of the instrument. So if you, if I play the lowest note on the bassoon, I would have the entire length of that tube sealed up. Rebecca: Oh yeah. Richard: So then, it’s coming out the bottom, in our case, the top, because it bends. (laughs) But it’s-it’s coming out the end of the tube. When I lift up a finger, it effectively shortens that tube a little bit, and gives me, in essence, a shorter tube, which would produce a slightly higher pitch. Much like the pan pipe, where you have different lengths of tubes, we acknowledge that by just picking up fingers on a single tube. Rebecca: Okay, that’s clear. Richard: Mm. Rebecca: Okay. You made a statement a little while ago. Richard: ‘Kay. Rebecca: Now the one about the little background about harmonics and overtones. You said, I think you said, according to my notes, the bassoon has audible harmonics that are practical? Did I get that note down right? Richard: I think what I was referring to is that, with a violin, for instance, and we’ll compare a violin and a cello. When a violin starts getting up into its you know, four or five octaves above the bass harmonic, you have two problems that show up. One is that you’re getting it kind of outside the limits of human hearing, and you’re also getting distance between successive notes and darn close to [cuts out] finger. And so in that effect that not only, if you had extended that indefinitely, not only could you not hear it, you really couldn’t play it very effectively. Whereas on the cello, you know, you have, you could, theoretically, get all the way up there. Right to the �same place where the violin is playing, but then the notes would be further enough apart that you could have a fighting chance at playing. (laughs) SO there’s the [cuts out] four or five of the audible notes of the instrument, is extremely difficult to play, on, bass instruments. It’s a bit easier to play ‘cause we’re still to where there’s not, to where you don’t have to shorten the string or the column of air, that much. And so in that respect, it’s practical and it’s also audible. That four octaves above the bottom of the cello, or the bassoon, is, just, scratching the surface of the violin. Rebecca: Yeah, I-I remember the first time a violinist friends of mine told me that when they were playing very high notes on a higher string, they’d have to move their fingers aside to make room for a neighboring finger to getRichard: Yeah. Rebecca: -so that just blew my mind because think of the maneuvering you’d have to do, especially if it was a fast passage. Just to play, just to nail the notes. I (trails off) Richard: Yeah, I, it is, it does just blow the mind, y’know? Rebecca: It made me glad I was a cellist. Richard: Exactly. (laughs heartily) Rebecca: Okay, great. This is, quite interesting. So I want to jump back to a term that you’re using that we know the meaning of, but for the non-musician you’d better clarify. You used the term “Western Music.” Richard: Oh! Okay. As opposed to Country Western Music? Rebecca: Right. Richard: Western Music is actually compared to, I guess the natural, economy, and since we tend to refer to things as A or B, or left or right, up or down, that Western Music then has a �counterpart in Eastern Music, where the octave, that we have divided into 12 notes that are equally spaced, in some other culture they might not necessarily be, 12 notes. And, or, it may not use the same, they may not use the same, the notes in the same way that we do. Of course they kind of have the same notes, but, they use them in ways that sounds very alien to us. And so, Western Music has its counterpart in Western culture, which is, typically that was derived from, knowledge derived from what the Greeks had and what was here. Knowledge derived from what the Greeks [cuts out] and what we see with the Middle Easterns. (laughs) Rebecca: Yeah. So, so, pretty much Europe, and then you get into I guess that’d be called the Orient that they called it. Richard: Mhmm. Rebecca: Except for exceptions like Russia. I know, Tchaikovsky and Borodin and some of the other Russian composers, they really sound like European composers. [Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, 19th century Russian composer; Alexander Borodin, 19th century Russian composer] Richard: Well, and, and you can trace some of the reason for that back to, in fact, those two composers that you mentioned are very interesting counter-examples. Because, Borodin was one of the, was one of the composers, along with Modest Mussorgsky, Glazunov, and somebody else I can’t think of, from around Europe, the “Russian Five,” if you were seeking to stray away from the Western musical tradition that was native Russians, it conflicted with Tchaikovsky because he was definitely of the European mindset. [Modest Mussorgsky, 19th century Russian composer] That Tchaikovsky really did not use that much Russian, didn’t really cite Russian musical sources. He didn’t that much, and his symphonies are pretty much what you’d expect from Brahms at the time. So that thing with Russia being kind of a weird outlier, is actually a �great observation because it’s a weird outlier. (chuckles) [Johannes Brahms, 19th century German composer] Rebecca: Well, having produced, Shostakovich as well, I’ve always found his music to be, a very interesting mixture of really evocative, foreign-foreign to me, as a Western music aficionado, definitely sounds like, you know, cold, shivery winters and- [Dmitri Shostakovich, 20th century Soviet-era Russian composer] Richard: Mhmm. Rebecca:-and, you know, all sorts of other stuff that we don’t-we don’t really understand, even in the coldest parts of this continent,Richard: Right. Rebecca:-except maybe, Richard: Yeah. Rebecca: Alaska. Okay. Well, we’ve kind-sort of digressed here. Um. Richard: Always fun. Rebecca: Yeah. Let’s see. So, your affiliation with the symphony. Richard: Ah! Rebecca: Let’s see, let’s go back to ... so, I have kind of a personal interest in choral pieces like Beethoven’s Ninth and the Brahms Requiem, and the Verdi Requiem. [A Requiem is the Latin text of the Catholic Mass for the Dead; in the case of Brahms and Verdi, set to music. Giuseppe Verdi, 19th century Italian composer] Richard: Me too. (laughs) Rebecca: The symphony is like “you must haveRichard: I’m sorry, I may have lost you there. �Rebecca: Have you played all of those pieces during your time in the symphony? Richard: Ah! Very good question! We did the Verdi Requiem here once, in the last 25 years. We’ve done the Beethoven Ninth, I want to say, three times so far, and my fourth time in October again. ... Now, at Christmastime, we will typically do joint performances with a civic chorale and, now lately, the second chorale ensemble in town that I, the Choral Arts Ensemble, which is just a small, more selective choir. And, we will have worked with them, usually [cuts out] them has been more the tradition to play things with them at Christmas, although the one classical Christmas thing you would expect, I believe we may have done all of once, which is the Messiah. The Christmas portion of Messiah. [By George Friedrich Handel, late 17th and early 18th century German-British composer. The Messiah has choral and orchestral movements interspersed with interludes where a vocal soloist sings a short “recitative,” resembling an improvisation, and accompanied by cello and harpsichord.] Rebecca: Okay, and I feel like Beethoven’s Ninth, jumping back to that, is one of the most difficult orchestral works in existence. Especially for the, well, parts of it for the low strings. Richard: Uh-huh. I could agree with that case. Rebecca: Yeah, I mean, it’s-it’s on all the audition lists or used to [be]Richard: Uh-huh. Rebecca: -taking auditions, long ago. But, if you can tell me your opinion of how the rehearsals have gone when the orchestra has tackled Beethoven’s Ninth? Richard: They have always been, they’ve always been, I-I personally feel like they have always been cordial. Especially the first bassoon. (laughs) Rebecca: (laughs back) �Richard: No. Especially the no, the, Civic Chorale is, probably, play, I’m gonna say they sing beyond the normal range, it’s-it’s, that is a group, who, for being one that-that is open to everybody, pretty much, not sure if there’s a way they’d never be accepted by the Civic Chorale. That they want you to be able to come in and see what they do, and they have always been in an excellent mood when we’ve worked with them. And, I-I think that’s a testament to some of them like Dwight McIntyre, and I’m not sure who’s doing it now, but he had a very strong vocal tradition and talent here. That, is very exciting, I mean, and it’s continuing now even though it’s stopped performing. It’s something that’s based on a peer and he’s a very wonderful singer. It’sit’s a nice place to do Beethoven’s [Ninth] Symphony. Rebecca: Great. let’s see. Probably I should back up, I’m there’s terminology that nonmusicians won’t understand, Richard: What? Rebecca: Giuseppe Verdi, who was a private composer I believe. He composed this, Mass for the Dead, setting for the Catholic Mass for the Dead. Setting to music, for some patron’s funeral, I remember that. Richard: Toni. Mantoni. It was the person that it was written for, and this did this part where they played for Verdi, and Verdi died. Rebecca: Oh! Richard: And then, now when Verdi died it was a big deal. I believe, if I am not mistaken, that Toscanini, mostly known for his work in America, that he actually conducted that performance when Verdi died. [Arturo Toscanini, 19th and 20th century Italian conductor, who became famous in the U.S. via his weekly broadcast concerts with the NBC Symphony Orchestra] Rebecca: Goodness. �Richard: So. Yeah that, it requires a very, very, very long story and, and the choir [it] was a very, dramatic piece. Rebecca: I agree. It seems to have a lot of appeal for musicians. I hope it does for you. Richard: Yeah. Yeah. Rebecca: Okay, well let’s see. Is there, are there other things you want to tell me about your time with the Wyoming Symphony? Richard: Just a general summary, and, that, I mean, most of my playing life, has been, right now exactly, half of my bassoon playing life has been in Casper. Rebecca: Oh. Richard: And, half of that would’ve been-all of that would’ve been, half of my bassoon playing life has been in the Wyoming Symphony. In my wildest dreams I wouldn’t have dreamed of, 25 years ago, I think that’s due to excellent colleagues, and very good leadership, and wonderful audiences and always kind of feel urged to play beyond my best when I sit in front of the audiences here, because I feel like they deserve that. Rebecca: Well that’s very good to hear. Okay, well, we do appreciate your giving us your time today. It’s been very, interesting. All this detail about bassoon playing, and, things like that. Richard: Thank you. Rebecca: It’s going to be a real addition to this project. Richard: Well, if you have any other questions, do feel free to call and ask. I’d agree to do this again and again and again and again. Rebecca: (laughs) Okay. I guess that’s it. Take care. Richard: Okay. You too. Rebecca: Bye. �Richard: Bye-bye. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource WyoHistory.org Wyoming Symphony Orchestra Oral History Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/</a> Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2022-2023 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource WyoHistory.org; Rebecca Hein Language A language of the resource ENG Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NCA 01.i.2022.02 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound; Text Description An account of the resource Audio files and transcripts created and edited by Rebecca Hein and students at Casper College during an oral history project with players of the Wyoming Symphony Orchestra. The oral histories were conducted by Hein between 2022 and 2023 and are a part of Wyohistory.org publishing project. Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data M4A Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard Turner Wyoming Symphony Orchestra Oral History Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/</a> Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2022-06-17 Description An account of the resource Audio file and transcript for oral history interview with Wyoming Symphony Orchestra player Richard Turner. This interview was conducted by Rebecca Hein for Wyohistory.org on June 17, 2022. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound; Text Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Becky Hein; Richard Turner Language A language of the resource ENG Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. WyoHistory.org Wyoming Symphony Orchestra Oral History Project, NCA 01.i.2022.02 WyCaC US. Casper College Archives and Special Collections. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NCA 01.i.2022.02_RichardTurner Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3; PDF https://caspercollege.cvlcollections.org/files/original/5479ca0cb3f3554eab7b3da918916a46.mp3 2bacad816c9d1fe893436f8ffe77415e https://caspercollege.cvlcollections.org/files/original/ee1d8ec0eb56992764cb0de0d108f671.pdf be96971d4cfcccee31ea00c056b68785 PDF Text Text Wyoming Symphony Oral History Project Rebecca Hein interviewing Susan Stanton, June 23, 2022 Date transcribed: July 26, 2022 Rebecca: Okay, thank you for giving us your time today. Susan: Mhmm. Rebecca: Let’s start with you giving us your name and your instrument, and how you came to play that instrument. Susan: Okay, my name is Susan Stanton. Sorry, what were the other questions? Rebecca: what your instrument is, and how you came to play that instrument. Susan: Oh! Okay, I play violin. I play violin thanks to school music programs. I, my parents never, it never occurred to them, to give us music lessons, and, they showed a violin in school, and said we could, get out of a certain class that I hated if we took vioRebecca: (laughs) Susan: -We took music lessons. And I said, that sounds like-sign me up! Rebecca: Yeah. Susan: So, but then it turned out later that I found out my grandfather had played the violin. He died when I was very young, but I didn’t know that. And I’ve got, I’ve inherited some of his music, and he fingered the way that I do, and I don’t know. It’s just weird. But anyway. Hooray for school music programs. [A fingering is a marking in the music indicating which finger should play which note] Rebecca: Okay yeah. Your other work and education outside of music, just for the background and context. �Susan: Oh, okay. Let’s see, my other work. Well, I did start out in school as a music major. but in college I mean-but I, changed my major when I was a sophomore, I guess, and I have degrees in other things. And, but I kept playing, ‘cause actually my third year, even when I still had a music scholarship, even when I wasn’t a major. I kept playing in the, school orchestra, and, I eventually, I was a newspaper reporter for 20 years, and then I got a library degree, and I was a librarian for 24 years. so I have a masters in library. But I always kept playing. I played in a lot of community orchestras in California, before I moved here to Wyoming, and then once I moved here I joined the Wyoming Symphony. Rebecca: Yeah, and what year was that, do you recall? Susan: It was 1994. Rebecca: Okay. And, do you have memories from those first years with the symphony? Susan: No, not that many memories. I did, when I first moved here, I didn’t- before I joined the newspaper, I worked part time for the symphony for a couple of months. So I moved here in February ‘94, and I think I worked for the symphony when Dale Bohren was the, manager. For a few months after that, I can’t really remember how many months I worked, it really wasn’t that long, and then I joined the newspaper. That was my strongest memory. He really kind of laid out what the symphony and Casper were all about. So that was, one time. Rebecca: Okay. Susan: And, uhRebecca: Go ahead. Susan: Oh! the symphony itself, yeah, I really liked it. I, I thought it was a good group, and, they played a lot, and, took it seriously, I thought. at the time, although once we got other conductors I realized we didn’t. And at that time it was a lot more of a community group than it is now. �There were some imports, but they were, kind of local imports, I guess you would say, in-state people. So, you know, I met people then that I still know today. that was great. Rebecca: Yeah, okay so, you were in the symphony from 1994, until, Curtis Peacock left? That would’ve been in the early 2000s, I believe. Susan: Yeah, no, actually I was in the symphony, I-I was there all through the Jonathan Shames era. Rebecca: Okay. Susan: The early, 2000s. And I was there the first couple years of the Matthew Savery era. And then I, left, for the sake of my mental health. (chuckles) And uhRebecca: Ooohhh. Susan: (chuckles more) And then I rejoined immediately after he left. And I’ve been in ever since. So I was out, for about five years, I believe. Rebecca: So you rejoined when Christopher Dragon became music director? Susan: Yes. Well in the year- the year they did the search I rejoined actually. Rebecca: Ah. Okay. I’m writing this down so I don’tSusan: Yeah. Rebecca:-Ask you things twice. UmSusan: Sure. Rebecca: Okay, let me back up to, the ‘90s, before the Jonathan Shames, oh right, the search year, I wanted to ask you about that, and then ISusan: Okay. �Rebecca: Do you remember, any particular concert, or year, that stood out for you before the ‘90s, before Jonathan Shames came on board, or before the year of the search? Does anything stand out? Susan: Let’s see. My two strongest memories, wa- The strongest memory is when, André Bohren played Rhapsody In Blue with us. [Rhapsody in Blue, by George Gershwin, 20th century American composer and pianist. The Rhapsody, for solo piano and orchestra, combines elements of classical music with jazz effects] That was a very meaningful concert, ‘cause I knew the family a bit, and it was just amazing that André went from playing Für Elise [a famous student piece by Beethoven] to playing Rhapsody In Blue. So it was crazy, and it was a very good concert. Just very meaningful. And we did runouts occasionally, and we went to, God, was it Riverton? I guess it was? Lander or Riverton [Wyoming]. We played in a pit orchestraRebecca: Right. Susan: -but, yeah. Rebecca: Sleeping Beauty Ballet, I think. Susan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and that was a very fun concert, and it was fun to do a runout. I mean, I know it’s, expensive and out of reach, but, ideally I wish that was what the symphony did. So, that was good to do something that, I wish we could do all the time. Rebecca: Yeah, it costs money but it’s-it’s very good to bring, the-that, uhSusan: Yeah. Rebecca: -quality of a product to the rest of the state, howeverSusan: Exactly. �Rebecca: -much. Yeah, Let’s just back up briefly. You mentioned André Bohren, and you mentioned Rhapsody In Blue. Could you say just a little bit more about Rhapsody In Blue, including maybe the composer andSusan: Oh, okay. Rebecca: And that sort of thing? Susan: Sure. Okay. Well, Rhapsody In Blue is a piano concerto by George Gershwin, it’s United Airlines’ advertising theme, if you don’t know what it is. ‘Course by the time anyone looks at this, no one will know what United Airlines is, but- (laughs) Rebecca: (laughs back) Susan: It’s a, you know, one of the most famous American pieces, and, not the most difficult thing in the repertoire, but, a pretty, if you’re a beginning piano student, that is, that is, an amazing thing to be able to play. It’s, you know, not an easy piece, but it’s very very beautiful, and it’s one of the, exemplary American works. So, it’s a joy to play with anybody, but, especially to play with a beginning student who ... rockets out of nowhere, and can play it. It’s a great experience. Rebecca: And, do you remember if the audience liked it especially? Susan: Oh, yes. Yes, they did. Okay, well of course the other thing I’m leaving out is the Moody Blues. That was-that was another big experience from the ‘90s. we did two concerts with them, one in ... September ‘94, and then another one in ‘99. Both of those were amazing. And the audience went, you know, that was kind of when, pop groups were just starting to play with community orchestras. Well that was very exciting for the audience and we played at the [Casper] Events Center, and we were all electrified, our instruments were you know, they put mics on them and it gives a kind of resonance that you don’t normally feel in orchestra, so it was, �you know, the closest thing to being a rock musician. That was amazing, and the, you know, Nights in White Satin, everybody turned on their lighters [in the days] before cell phonesRebecca: (chuckles back) Susan: Ah! You know I just thought, “Wow! Wouldn’t it be great if, you know, people would do that for, like, the slow movement in Beethoven’s Seventh.” Bring out their lighters, you know. Rebecca: Ah. Susan: That was, just a beautiful experience, connecting with the audience like that. Rebecca: You mentioning the Moody Blues concert puts me in mind of, the fact that we had microphones on our instruments, and headphones that we had to wear. Did the violins have to wear a pair of headphones too? Susan: No. There were too many of us. We didn’t wear headphones. Rebecca: Oh, so you didn’t have to cope with listening to yourself through the headphones? Susan: No! Rebecca: Okay. Well then you don’t have to comment on that. Susan: Oh! Rebecca: Okay. Well that’s cool. Susan: Yeah. Rebecca: Okay, so there were two Moody Blues concerts, one in ‘94 and one in ‘99. Were they essentially the same, or-? was one better than the other, or better attended, or more memorable? Susan: I think the first one was more memorable. It was more their greatest hits. and, just at that time, that was such a new concept. It was kind of far out for people to go to a rock concert and hear a rock band. Go to an orchestra concert and hear a rock band. But in ‘99, that had been done �before, and also in ‘99, Moody Blues had a new album out called English Sunset, and we had to play some of the stuff from their new album. Rebecca: Oh! Susan: Which was good, but it wasn’t what people were expecting, so, the audience reaction was a lot more muted than the first concert, I felt like. Rebecca: Aha. Now that makes sense. Okay. So then, do you have memories-are you done with that? I don’t want to interrupt you if you have more to say. Susan: Those are the ones that pop-pop up immediately. There’s probably others ifRebecca: Okay, well if you remember them later you can bring them up. Susan: Okay. Rebecca: Okay, and then there was the search year. Susan: Yes. Rebecca: Where different conductors played concerts, basically auditioning. Susan: Mhmm. Rebecca: What do you remember about that year? Susan: That was an exciting year. That was so fun, because the orchestra had been, I mean, even if you have a conductor that’s amazing, after 20 years, it’s, you know, it’s, great to play with somebody new, and I think that was a time when people realized, “oh wow, we could be something different.” You know, we could be better. We can-there’s more here than we thought there was. ‘cause all the conductors were good, actually. Any one of them would’ve been great. Rebecca: Mhmm. Susan: And most of them, I-you know, I kind of looked later, and most of them went on to other orchestras and did other things, so. I was very happy about it, and it was a very exciting time. �Rebecca: It must’ve been really fun, every concert different because with a different conductor andSusan: Yes. Rebecca: Yeah. Susan: Yeah, and it was funny, you know, adjusting to how, to different conductors and some of them conduct really small, and (laughs) Rebecca: Ahhh. Susan: We’d try to find where the down [downbeat] is, and, so that was, you know, we had to adjust as well. Besides, you know, there’s kind of a feeling of, if you’re playing for a guest, you want to be the best you can be ‘cause you want to, you know, have some pride in your organization, so, I thinkRebecca: Yeah. Susan: I think there might’ve been a little slacking off, under Curtis, just because we were used to him, and, he didn’t scare us anymore. Rebecca: Yeah. Okay. So then Jonathan Shames was, selected at the end of that year, and you, played under him? Susan: Yes I did. Rebecca: Okay. What can you tell us about that time? Susan: That was, yeah, he, you know, whatever people say about the orchestra today, he really built that foundation, I feel. A lot of people did not like him. He could be a little short-tempered, but, I liked him a lot, and I think he- I didn’t take what he said personally. I don’t think it was meant personally. I think, you know, I think a lot of the older conductors, that’s the way they were trained, and they didn’t know any better, kind of. You know, he didn’t- but he was sooo �good. He was a really good conductor. Really very clear, and really did some basics with the orchestra to kind of, with intonation, and with dynamics. and also picked a good repertoire, I thought. also, he did his pre-concert talks. He would do them in the library, and I worked at the library at the time, and I coordinated with him. so maybe I had a better understanding than a lot of people, of what he was aiming at, because I had to go to all the talks. I was, managing it, umRebecca: I have a question, but not unless you’re done, or paused. Susan: I’m done I guess. Rebecca: Okay. You used a couple of musician’s terms that I would like you to clarify please. one of them is intonationSusan: Mhmm. Rebecca: -and the other one was dynamics. Susan: Dynamics. Okay, intonation means playing in tune, and, dynamics means soft and loud. And a lot of the time, a lot of people in the orchestra are school teachers, and if they get used to playing in their school orchestras where everything is the same, the same dynamic. It’s this continuous loud sound, and they- So anyway, it’s just reminding, oh yeah, we’re adults, we can do this stuff, you know, we don’t have to play this. Rebecca: Ah. Susan: We can play better, just kind of pay attention. Rebecca: Uh-huh. Susan: Well, I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s the reason, that’s my crackpot theory. Rebecca: (laughs heartily) Okay, so, it sounds like Shames was quite straightforward and he talked to the orchestra, to tell them what they needed to do and wasn’t, um- didn’t try to be- I don’t know how to say this, tactful? I’m not accusing the man of being tactless, but I don’t think �there’s anything wrong with a conductor asking what he wants from a group, and telling them what he needs. I mean, we’re there because the conductor’s the boss, and to improve, so. Susan: Right. Rebecca: Yeah. Susan: Right. I just addressed him- Sorry, go ahead. Rebecca: No, it’s alright, you go ahead. Susan: I just contrast him with somebody like Christopher Dragon, who’s extremely tactful. Rebecca: Ah. Susan: I mean, he asks for what he wants, but he says it in a very very polite way, and I think that’s, just kind of the trend today, and older people are, in my experience, have not been as careful- -as he is today, so. Rebecca: Yeah. Susan: And I think some musicians, you know, the conductor will say, “the section is not intune,” and they’ll feel like, “oh, he’s saying I’m a bad player,” you know, no. (chuckles again) That’s not what he’s saying. Rebecca: Uh-huh. Susan: But, some people take it that way. Rebecca: Yeah, well, it’s probably a ticklish job conducting an orchestra, because you’ve got all sorts of people under you, andSusan: Right. Well that’s the whole, exactly, well that’s the whole miracle of an orchestra. It’s, you know, like Claude Abreu, A-B-B-R-E-U, Gustavo Dudamel’s mentor, you know, says that’s the miracle of an orchestra. It’s 100, you know, 100 people trying to do one thing, and that’s, very hard, and when it happens it’s amazing. �Rebecca: Well, and you have to think about who those hundred people are. Susan: Yes. Rebecca: They’ve all worked really hard to learn their instrument, and they’ve all got their own musical style and they’re all having to blend, andSusan: Mhmm. Rebecca: -and obey the boss. Susan: Yep. Rebecca: Whether they agree or not, or respect him or her or whatever. Susan: Mhmm. Rebecca: Yep. Susan: Exactly. Rebecca: Great, okay. Well, so, let’s see. From the Shames years, do you have a memorable concert, or any stand out experience? Susan: The Ninth Symphony that we played. Rebecca: Beethoven. Susan: ‘cause that was-Beethoven’s Ninth Sym-thank you, yes. Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony, the Choral SymphonyRebecca: Mhmm. Susan: -that has Ode To Joy at the end. I know you know this, but, I’ll say it for the- uh, Rebecca: That’s fine. Susan: Yeah. And it’s, it’s just a transcendent symphony. I had not played it before, I think, it had been felt that we, that the orchestra might have been incapable of it. It was kind of a hard song, but it came out beautifully. my mechanic was standing behind me singing, so I just had this �great feeling of the community coming together, to produce this beautiful thing. This beautiful, amazing thing. And, it was-it was an incredible experience. UmRebecca: Well it is. Oh sorry, I’ll wait. Susan: No. I’m done. Rebecca: Well, it is a very very difficult piece, and being a cellist, I always wonder how the low strings get when they’re featured, especially in the last movement. Do you remember, in general, how the performance went, and especially, when, I mean you’ll have to have a very strong cello and bass section to bring on the last movement. Susan: Yeah. Rebecca: How did it go, do you remember? Susan: Well, Jonathan said at the end, “I want to wait a couple years and do this again.” He felt like, I mean, it, that it was, it went well for our first run, but that, you know, now that we had played it, we knew how to play it- there was another level we could get to. The symphony played it under Matthew Savery, and I was not in that concert, but I watched it, and there, it- just felt so heart- it just felt so soulless. I don’t know, it was all about fast tempos and there wasn’t, it just didn’t have musicality, I felt. It was all about showing off how fast people could play, I felt. And I felt like this one in comparison, maybe not as technically skilled, but, it just, I thought it was more beautiful. I don’t know. Rebecca: Well, it’s very interesting that you should say that because, I recall when I was in graduate school in Northwestern University, we had a conductor who was a world-class clarinetist. Susan: Mhmm. �Rebecca: I mean, he was one of the best musicians on the planet. And he was a stickler for, a steady beat, Susan: Mhmm. Rebecca: -And I mean, a stickler. I’m telling you, he was, that was, he just insisted on it all the time. I played under him a lot and then the next year I was still in the area so I went to hear the University Orchestra, and I might as well have just turned on a metronome and sat there in my living room and just listened to the metronome. Susan: Yeah. Rebecca: You know, and, it was just so, soulless, really. I-it was just, very mechanical, and it’s amazing now, what it takes to be a musician. Susan: Mhmm. Rebecca: As opposed to somebody that just beats time. Susan: Yes. Rebecca: So. This is very interesting. okay, so, you did the Ninth, Beethoven’s NinthSusan: The Ninth, yeah, oh, let me think of some other things. we did some-we did some more runout concerts. We played in, Sheridan a few times. pop- just pops concerts. you know, Copland's Rodeo, Aaron Copland, (duh-duh-duh-duh duh-duh duh-duh-duh-duh da-da-duh-duhda-da-dah-dah-dah-da) [Aaron Copland, 20th century American composer and conductor] Rebecca: Yeah. Copland’s Hoedown [from his ballet, Rodeo]. Susan: Yeah, that one. Hoedown and all that stuff, and that was another thing of bringing something to an audience that was really hungry to have a big orchestra come out and play. and it was a beautiful setting, it was, the, oh God, what’s his name? Malcolm Wallop’s Ranch. Rebecca: A-oh! �Susan: Very very beautiful setting. It was very fun to play there. Even though, you know, as a musician, outdoor concerts can be, you know, your strings go out of tune because of the weather, and all that crazy stuff, but even despite that, it was a wonderful experience. Rebecca: Yeah. Susan: Oh! Well, and another, thing that was interesting about Jonathan was, oh yeah, there were some really good - there were some funny moments. Jonathan played with us, in one concert, piano. He was an excellent, excellent pianist. And he was at the end of a solo, and he forgot he forgot the very end of it, so he just played the same note and kept going da-da-da-da-da-da-daand then he nodded, and then the orchestra came in. (laughs heartily) So I’m not sure if the audience caught on to what had happened, but, we were terrified, but, Rebecca: (laughs heartily) I could imagine. Susan: But, I think it worked out. And it was kind of one of those moments where you go, “oh yeah, even the big guys can screw up sometimes,” So that was, you know, and we kind of stuck together and hung out. That was good. He had, Jonathan had Becky Mothersbaugh and Jennifer Cowell do the Bach Double Violin Concerto, and he played harpsichord with them, and then the orchestra accompanied of course, and he directed and played harpsichord. That was great. I really liked that he kind of shared his instrument with us. I thought that was really really neat. He had, one of the Christmas concerts, he had his father, who is a Jewish Cantor, come and sing some Hanukkah Festivity music, and played that with us. and that was beautiful and interesting, and his father was a character and a great singer. and I remember there were some people who objected to having a, not in the orchestra, some of the audience members, objected to having Hanukkah music at a Christmas concert, and Rebecca: (dejected “oh”) �Susan: But the board stuck up for him, and they did it anyway, so that was great. Rebecca: Let’s see. you mentioned the harpsichord. Could you describe that instrument a bit? Susan: Yes. Oh, okay. A harpsichord is, the precursor of the piano. The strings are plucked. The mechanism in a piano, the piano key hammers the string to make sound. A harpsichord, it plucks the strings. So it makes a kind of different sound. So it’s a sound you heard with early music [music before the time of Johann Sebastian Bach, 1685-1750]. And ... this was just before, there were kind of mechanical keyboards with harpsichords. He played a real harpsichord that Casper College had. So there were a lot of issues with keeping it in-tune and all that, but, it worked out, and, sounded great. And again that was still the era- I mean there were import musicians, but not as great a percentage as today, so, and, there was a real feeling of, you know, Wyoming people creating something beautiful. Rebecca: Yeah, I remember in the ‘90s when I was in the orchestra, we always had our standard import people that really, they were almost always all from Wyoming, and theySusan: Yes. Rebecca: -almost always all came up for every concert. They were really, in a sense, part of the orchestra. They just didn’t happen to live in Casper. Susan: Exactly, Yeah. Yeah. ‘Cause it was almost always the same group every time. So, yeah, it felt like they were part of us. Rebecca: So that began to change, when, approximately? Susan: Well, it started to change under Savery. It really changed a lot under Christopher. Rebecca: Okay, so the big transition, away from community group would’ve been under Dragon, and not under, umSusan: No! I think it started under Savery, but it-it-it accelerated under Christopher. �Rebecca: Okay. Susan: You know, to be fair, Jonathan did fire one community member who really, was not very good. And that was seen as very controversial, but, boy, was that the right decision. So, that was that, I can’t even think of his name. That clarinet player. Anyway, the guy couldn’t figure out how to transpose, and it’s like, you have to do that. I mean, that's ridiculous, so. So that may’ve been the beginning, but, I would say it was, I would say it started under Jonathan, it accelerated under Savery, and then really accelerated with Christopher Dragon. [Clarinet is a B flat instrument, which means that when a B flat instrument plays a C major scale, it will sound the same as the B Flat scale on a piano. This will create completely wrong notes, and it’s necessary for the clarinetist to know how to mentally transpose as he or she plays. To transpose is to exactly copy exactly a passage of music, starting the passage on a different pitch.] Rebecca: Okay, regarding Dragon, I wantSusan: Yeah. Rebecca: -to talk on this. I have gathered that, because he is a conductor, or the conductor down in Colorado, in Denver, ... his presence in Casper is attracting a lot of ambitious graduate students who want him to notice them. Susan: Sure, oh yeah. Absolutely. Rebecca: At an audition, yeah. Susan: Oh yeah. Rebecca: And at first they come up here to beat the locals, who are not graduate students practicing five hours a day, or six hours a day. Susan: Yeah. �Rebecca: So, I guess it’s a trade-off. You want a good, non-resident conductor, and this is the sort of thing that can happen. Susan: Yeah. Yeah. Well and then the issue is, you know, he’s got a, I mean, great for today, but he’s got a two year contract when he goes away. Are these people gonna want to play with whoever we get? That’s a long drive. I don’t think they are. And, uhRebecca: Hmm. Susan: So then the locals haven’t been nurtured, so then, you know, there’s gonna be a hole. ButRebecca: You know, somebody whom I will not name, told me that he thought local talent should continue to be encouraged and nurtured, and took it to the board and they just, basically, shot it down. ‘Cause they were more interested in just having the best orchestra they could. Susan: Mhmm. Rebecca: So. Susan: Yeah. Rebecca: I mean, there’s not gonna be a lot of local people to draw on if somethingSusan: Exactly. Rebecca: -Isn’t done with encouragement. Yeah. Susan: Yeah. Well, we did a concert, yeah. That was, we did a concert with the college people this year, where we deliberately had, it was called, “Master and Teacher,”Rebecca: Mm. Susan: -something, and we had a lot of college students play with us. And I think that might’ve been an eye-opening experience for our conductor, because it ended up, several of the college students ended up playing with us for the rest of the year. And, you know, he might’ve gone, “oh, yeah, there’s some good people here too,” you know. Duh. But, but, they were, you know, �the college students didn’t even try to audition for the orchestra ‘cause they ... weren’t encouraged to, and, you know, maybe made to feel like they weren’t good enough, or whatever, and then when they played with us, you know, the conductor realized, oh yeah, they are good enough, so. I don't know. I don’t know if that will-that revelation will stick, but, I hope it does. Rebecca: Well, you know, this rehearsal schedule that was taken up when, the, switch was made to non-resident conductors, where it’s a very compressed schedule, Susan: Mhmm. Rebecca: What was it? Is it? Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and then a Saturday night concert? Susan: Right. and then a local string rehearsals on Tuesdays! Rebecca: Yeah, well, you know, the better students in the community, if they made it into All State Honors Orchestra, or All Northwest Honors Orchestra, that’s really, pretty much what they had to do. You know, you have to pull together a performance in very few rehearsals, in a very intensive experience. Susan: Yeah. Rebecca: But, that has not seemed to occur to, necessarily some of the people, that have been in charge, from what I’ve gathered. That there is talent in the community, and people have had to, you know, in just a few days, be ready to perform. Susan: Mhmm. Rebecca: Yeah. Okay, well let’s see. So you played under Savery for a little while, but it was just not what you wanted, I take it. I won’t ask you for particulars unless you want to give them, um. Susan: Oh, sure, he’s yeah, he’s well the- and first of all, the way he was selected. It kind of came to that, it’s so, so Jonathan, like I say, I think the first three years he was great, the last couple of years, especially the last year, he was kind of phoning it in. And not because of any �animosity he felt to the orchestra or anything, he just had his own life going on. He basically transitioned, to living in, Oklahoma. And he became the head of the opera programs for the University of Oklahoma, so that’s a pretty big job, and he’d never done that before, and he was finding his real slot which was academia. That was really the best fit for him and his career. But, since he was letting his contract run out, he suggested Matthew Savery. I don’t know where they knew each other or if they knew each other. I don’t think they knew each other very well, but, I think that was his way of trying to insure the orchestra, and kind of get out of it, and get on to the next phase of his life. The problem was that the board did not do another search. They just hired Matthew, kind of on the spot, and didn’t do the checking they should’ve done. And, and that led to some real problems down the road. UmRebecca: Right. Susan: -and the orchestra was not happy about him being selected that way, but, the board didn’t care what we thought about it, so, and it was, you know, they saved all sorts of money by doing it that way, and so that was that. And, you know, I’ll say the good things about Matthew. He was a decent conductor. Nothing to write home about, but okay. He was really good at, [indisdinguishable] donors and getting money. He was really good at that. Jonathan was not good at that. And he [Savery], and when the orchestra ran-went into financial reverses in 2008, he stuck with it. And he took a pay cut, so, you know, he basically said, “the orchestra is not going down on my watch,” so,Rebecca: Hmmm. Susan: I give him credit for that. That was, he was, he might’ve been a good guy, would be thesome other function, some other administrative function, butRebecca: (dejected “oh.”) �Susan: - but, as a musician, kind of mediocre, and, really a bully. Rebecca: You’re the second person I’ve heard say that. That he was a bully. Susan: Yeah. Yes. Rebecca: On the podium and offSusan: Yes. Rebecca: -because the other person who said it to me was, at one time, had to work with him pretty closely, not as a musician. Susan: Right. Yeah, exactly. Rebecca: That’s bad. Susan: Yeah. Oh yeah. He bullied the board. Which was, crazy. But, yeah. So, again, it’s the kinda thing, you know, people probably took it personally, but he’s just one of those guys that bullies everybody. And, you know, so, after a few years I just felt like, you know, I had nightmares for two weeks after one of our last concerts, and like I say, I’mRebecca: (Muffled and inaudible speech) Susan: I’m the kind of person that doesn’t take things personally. You know, I can be a, you know, you’ve kind of heard me making fun of people that take things personally, but, he was such a bully that it got to me. And I had nightmares for two weeks, and then after that I said, this is not worth it. I’mRebecca: Right. Susan: -I’m a part time musician. This isn’t my full time job. I don’t have to be in the symphony to, get credentials or anything, so I move to doing, I, played in other orchestras, I played for Casper College musicals, and I- (trails off) �Rebecca: It’s so interesting that conducting really must be a combination of good baton technique, you know, the ability to give a clear beat, and, indicate what you want musically,Susan: Mhmm. Rebecca: -and people skills. I mean, you get a conductor who’s a bully and, it just doesn’t work. Susan: Right. Rebecca: Or who doesn’t respect the orchestra. Maybe that comes down to pretty much the same thing. Susan: Right. Rebecca: Well, interesting, okay. So, then between Savery and Dragon did the board do a search, or did they just go straight to Dragon? Susan: No, they did a search. They did a search, and as soon as Savery left, I rejoined. Rebecca: Oh right, I have this down. And howSusan: Yes. Rebecca: -was that year of the search? Susan: That was another really exciting year. It’s-and, the level of talent. There are a lot of great conductors out there looking for a job. I mean, the people that are looking for a Wyoming job, are looking for like a supplemental job to their main job. but there’s some amazing talent out there. And again, I felt like ... any of the five conductors that we interviewed would’ve been great. There were no women in that group, that time. There was one woman in the group selected. So that was a drag, but it was, a very interesting group of people, and, Jerry how or ho? H-O-W? The guy that is the assistant conductor for the, Grand Teton Music Festival,Rebecca: Mm. �Susan: -worked with us also. And that was a wonderful experience. He’s a really good conductor. We kind of wanted him, but, you know, he wasn’t applying for the job unless he was interested in it. And yeah and there were-and that year, the two conductors that stood out to me were Christopher, of course, and then the other guy, Thomas Heuser? H-E-U-S-E-R. I’m not sure how you pronounce it. I think it’s, “Hoy-ser.” And he conducts the Idaho Falls Symphony, and there’s, and two other community symphonies. And he was a very strong candidate. And, a lot of us felt that if Christopher didn’t take it, Thomas would’ve taken it. And, either one of them would’ve been a wonderful choice, and the other three would’ve been good as well. Rebecca: Okay, Let’s talk about the music that you played during those years. Do you remember some of the pieces? MaybeSusan: TheRebecca: (inaudible) -or whatever? Susan: during the search, or? Rebecca: Or whenever. Just, anytime after Savery began, and, just up to whenever you want to. Susan: Gosh. (coughs) There’s so many good things. I should’ve brought a roster to remember them. I guess, recently, I would think of, Julia Louise Esther? The symphony that was, composed for the Wyoming Symphony? Rebecca: Mhmm. Susan: That was a really neat experience, playing something that no one else had played before and kind of figuring all of that out, and, doing a contemporary piece, um. That wasn’t off-putting at all, it was, you know, fresh and contemporary-sounding, but, very beautiful and interesting. That was a great experience. Playing pops concerts with Christopher was always fun. That’s his real strength. �Rebecca: Oh really? Susan: Is, pops, and kind of connecting pops with (clears throat) you know, not just kind of blowing it off. He’s gotten a lot of gigs around the country, like conducting films. Those concerts where they play the film and the orchestra plays the score. He’s very strong in that area. We haven’t done that, but Christopher Dragon is also known for, there was a video that went viral of him, where he’s dressed as a dinosaur, conducting Jurassic Park. Rebecca: (reels in laughter) Susan: So, (laughs hysterically) So yeah, if you, go to YouTube and Google “Dinosaur Conducts Jurassic Park,” you’ll see him. that was a, concert he did for the Colorado Symphony. Rebecca: That’s really funny! Susan: It is really funny! UhRebecca: (continues laughing hysterically) Susan: (chuckles heartily) So, you tell people, you know, Christopher Dragon, well nobody knows who he is, but then you say it’s the gu-it’s theRebecca: It’s the dinosaur. Susan: -the dinosaur that conducted Jurassic Park, “Oh that guy!,” you know. Every Everybody knows who that is. Rebecca: Well, so, so let’s go back to his pops concerts. Do you remember? I mean, there are so many pieces that qualify for, pops concert repertoire. Can you give me some idea of the sorts of pieces that Dragon programmed? Susan: Oh, you know, John Williams “Star Wars”, “Jurassic Park,” He didn’t dress up for that part. Rebecca: (Mockingly sad “awww”) �Susan: I know. (both chuckle) Susan: I know, what a drag. And last year, we did a lot of, kind of Ella Fitzgerald jazz things with a singer. It was really good. [I’m] blanking on her name, I’m sorry, I’m blanking on particular pieces. Rebecca: That’s alright. This gives me some idea. Susan: Yeah. Rebecca: Yeah I don't think, when I was in the symphony, I’m thinking now way back in the ‘70s, of course “Star Wars” andSusan: Yeah. It was new then, yeah. (chuckles) Rebecca: Yeah, um. Susan: Yeah. Now it’s like classical music. Rebecca: Yeah. Yeah, well, with the London Symphony, it really does, go very well. Susan: Right. Right. Rebecca: yeah. And Vaughan Williams wrote the score, right? Ralph Vaughan Williams? Or nowas it? Susan: No, John Williams. [John Williams, American composer and conductor] Rebecca: Okay. Great, okay, so, let’s see. I think I am ready to ask you, unless you have-I don’t want to stifle you if you want to say other things, before I ask another question. Susan: Let’s see. No, I guess not. If I think of it laterRebecca: You can just pipe up with it. About the Dragon years, Susan: Mhmm? �Rebecca: Can you kind of sum it up, from the standpoint of your experience? Particularly high points and really fun concerts? Susan: Okay, I would say, every concert with Christopher is fun. He is soooo dynamic, so exciting, so young. Everything is new for him. So it’s kind of like being in a youth orchestra almost, where everything you play is new, and you’re excited about it, and it’s really great. From the audience, he looks very flamboyant. He looks like, a little like, Bernstein used to look? [American conductor Leonard Bernstein] Rebecca: Hmm. Susan: But within that, he’s very tightly controlled. He’s cuing everything. [To cue is to clearly indicate to a musician or section when to enter the music after a period of rest] He’s a “cuing machine,” you know? And keeping a very steady beat. He does a little trick where he’ll hum a pop song under his breath, and that’s how he gets the tempo for whatever classical piece we’re playing, and, it sounds goofy, but it works. He’s on-tempo all the time. and not a metronome, but he’s, it’s a very consistent tempo, so that’s really neat. Let’s see, as far as, some of the fun concerts, uh. Well, we did Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony and survived, so that was that was good. You know, that’s always a challenge ‘cause everybody knows that one. So you really can’t, screw up and get away with it. So. Uh. Rebecca: Right. Susan: People [musicians] love it and dread it at the same time. So. But, that was very successful. I’m sure there were others, I’m just kind of blanking. Rebecca: Well sure, Beethoven’s Fifth isSusan: Hmm. Rebecca: -a masterpiece, and, a memorable- �Susan: Mhmm. Rebecca: -experience every time a person plays itSusan: Yes. Oh! I’ll tell you another thing he’s done, is, well, trying to-he’s-he’s kind of going with the theme of the times where he’s trying to include, you know, women composers and composers of color. We did, a piece by a Black woman composer that was very charming, very pretty piece. “Dances in the Canebrakes.” Super fun piece, that, and it was orchestrated by William Still, a Black composer, and we’re gonna play a piece by him, William Still, next year. So I like that he’s kind of paying attention to that, and and, finding some good repertoire that’s not in the standard repertoire, but kind of introducing that, and kind of getting our audiences’ feet wet, a little bit in that. [Canebrakes is by Florence Beatrice Price, 20th century American classical composer] Rebecca: Well, you know, my sole and only objection to music composed after about 1920,Susan: (laughs heartily) Rebecca: -is that it didn’t have, it didn’t make me keep wanting to listen to it. It’s like a book. Does it make me keep wanting to read it? Does itSusan: Mhmm. Rebecca: -make me want to keep listening to it? Or, you know, like a painting. Does itSusan: Mhmm. Rebecca: -make me stay there standing at it because I'm just hypnotized? Mesmerized? So, that’s always been my standard. Susan: Mhmm. Rebecca: Ugly or whatever, it’s just not going to inspire me, sorry. Susan: Mm. �Rebecca: I think audiences in general feel that way. And I don’t regard it as-I don’t know, catering to lower taste, or something like that. Everybody has their own point of view on this. What’s your point of view? Susan: Well, my point of view is that, we can’t just keep playing the 19th century forever and ever. I mean, we’re two centuries on at this point. and composers are doing other things. I think we need to, let the audience listen, and, you know, make their own decisions. I mean, people love “The Rite of Spring” now [ballet by Igor Stravinsky, 20th century Russian composer and conductor with French and American citizenship] They hated it at the time. Rebecca: (laughing) Right. It was a shocker. I remember, reading that in music history. Susan: Yeah! Well I wish people would care that much now. You know, I mean, okay, a riot [the audience rioted at the Paris premiere of Rite of Spring] isn’t the greatest thing to happen at a concert, but at least they’re listening, and, caring about it. You know, just- (laughs again) Rebecca: Yeah. Expressing theirSusan: I’d almost rather have that than just polite indifference. and I think people can be surprised at, if they give it a chance, how much they’ll like and appreciate the newer stuff. Or, you know, now that this, you know, “Dances in the Canebrakes” was composed in the 1950s, it sounds like it was composed in the 1920s. It has a very, kind of Jazz-age flapper kind of sound, but, I found it very very charming, and very retro, kind of, and, the fact that it was composed by a Black woman. You know, I think you would’ve wanted to listen to it regardless. So I think that, I think we have to not be a museum, you know. I think we’ve gotta, go on and find things. I mean, like, John Adams is crazy good. I’ve loved everything I’ve heard of his. he’s the guy that did “Nixon in China,” the opera. [John Adams, 20th century American composer and conductor] Rebecca: Oh. �Susan: So, I think there’s people out there, and I think we have to, I think the way we’re doing it now, is, pretty standard in other orchestras, which is, you have the war horses, and then you kind of sandwich them with a modern piece in the middle so the audience can’t leave, you know. Rebecca: Yeah, they want to hang around for theSusan: Yeah. Yeah, so they have to hang out-they have to listen to something else to get their treat at the end. But, but I think things are changing in other places. I mean, Los Angeles [the Los Angeles Philharmonic] is really getting sophisticated about modern music, so hopefully, eventually, that’ll translate. I mean the, you know, the classics are great. They’re still great. People will still wanna listen to them, but, there’s other stuff too. So, that’s great for everybody. There’s more music, we’ll want to come out and listen, and I hope that doesn’t go away. I mean, the COVID time was pretty scary for that, but, maybe it made people appreciate live music more. It certainly made me appreciate live music more. I mean, Zoom is wonderful, and I’m grateful that it exists, but, you can’t-nothing duplicates being in a hall with musicians. Rebecca: Mhmm. That’s true. Yeah, that was a very difficult interlude for all perf-well everybody, but performing musicians, or performersSusan: Yes. Rebecca: -in general. Yeah. It's good that it's over. Susan: Knocked on-knock on wood. Rebecca: Right. Susan: Hope it is. (laughs) Rebecca: We’ll hope it’s over. Susan: Yes. �Rebecca: (clears throat) Okay, well we’ve covered quite a lot of ground. Do you have anything to add before we wind up? Susan: No. I guess I’ll I think you were hinting at this, and maybe I already said it, but, and you kind of said it in your article, [history of the Wyoming Symphony Orchestra, published by WyoHistory.org] but yeah, the trend in our orchestra, just since I have been there has definitely been ... from a mostly local group, to a group where about a third of the orchestra is local, and the rest is, import musicians, most of whom are out of state. There’s still some in-state musicians that come in via import. And, like I said before, I think that’s a worrying trend in the long term. I think, you know, yeah, we have this super hot conductor right now. Yeah. People are willing to drive eight hours to come play, but once he leaves, what’s gonna happen with that? We’re gonna need to recruit more locals, and more state, Wyoming, musicians, to come and play and fill that gap. Unless a miracle happens and they still wanna come. But I-I think there’s a little bit of a trend in “integrate today, so why rock the boat?,” and it’s likeRebecca: Hmm. Susan: You know, someday, it’s like Lynn Cheney said about Trump, you know, someday Trump will be gone and you’ll have to, you know, live- you’ll have to make sense of that new world, and, you know, someday Christopher will be gone, and, we’ll have to make sense of that new world. So. Rebecca: Well this brings a question to my mind, but, you finish and then I’ll ask my question. Susan: Okay, no, that’s all I had to say. Rebecca: Well, I, my personal experience, I feel is revealing with the, Grand Teton Orchestra? Susan: Yes. �Rebecca: I’ll start with my childhood where my musician mother, she was an ameteur but very enthusiastic, if there was something going on in Colorado, she made sure that we went to it. I don’t mean necessarily concerts, but, Dorothy Delay, the very famous violin teacher at the Juilliard school, did a master class, at, USC I think, in Fort Collins, and my mother- [The Julliard School of Music, a private conservatory of music in New York City] Susan: Mhmm! Rebecca: -and my mother made sure that we got down there for that master class. And, when you think about all the incredible music that was going on up in Jackson, at the Grand Teton Festival, and has for years, my mother never once said to me, “Do you know who’s soloing with the Grand Teton Festival Orchestra? Let’s get up there and hear them.” I don’t think she knew about that group.Susan: Hm! Rebecca: -because I’m not sure that they did a good enough job of really publicizing what they had to offer. Susan: Right. Rebecca: Direct from the state. Susan: Right. They might not have at that time. Rebecca: Yeah. It’s probably different now, but I just remember thinking, you know, this orchestra up there, it’s in Wyoming, but is it of Wyoming? Susan: Right. No, not at all. Rebecca: It isn’t. Yeah, and, I worry that maybe the Wyoming Symphony Orchestra here in Casper is headed in that direction. Susan: Mhmm. �Rebecca: Maybe it won’t end up that way. I hope it doesn’t. Susan: I hope not. I, I don't think, yeah, I hope not. I hope not, ‘cause that’s, I mean, that’s kind of how the Cheyenne Symphony is, right? I mean it’s mostly a Colorado orchestra, and that’s, yeah, there just needs to be a place for local musicians. And, you know, the college music groups can help with that, but, you know, or you look [at] ... this community band that’s sprung up. Come out of that need, I think. We’re, I don’t know if you’re familiar with that, but, besides the band that plays during the summer, there’s also another band that is a volunteer group, and they play a couple times a year, and it’s just community people that wanna play, and, are adults and don’t have a place to play, or, they’re students that want to play more. You know, and that’s good too, but it’s a shame that that group doesn’t have access to playing with other musicians, and kind of upping their game through playing with, you know, more skilled musicians. I don't know. Kind of rambling, but I hope you get what I’m trying to say. I, you know, I think there’s a need and I just, hope they figure it out and I hope they don’t eliminate- ‘cause, so the board may feel, they just want to get the best no matter what, but, I don’t think the audience feels that way. I would be very curious if someone would survey the audience. I think it’s still important to the audience that there’s people they know in the symphony. ‘Cause, I still get comments around town from even casual friends going, “oh, you’re playing in the symphony, I saw you,” you know, so it’s like I’m the minor celebrity to these people? I don’t know, IRebecca: (laughs heartily) Susan: That may be an extreme way of putting it, but, people like that. I don’t, even if it sounds better, I think not having people there that they know, would make them not have as good of an experience. I don’t know. You know what, we’ll see what happens. �Rebecca: Okay. Well, Thank you for being available for this. You brought out a lot of really important information. Susan: Okay. I hope so, but I hope you, I hope you interviewed some of the old timers. I just really don’t know about that older stuff before the ‘90s. Rebecca: Yeah. I try to snag as many of those people as I can. Susan: Yeah, well, and you know, time-the clock is ticking. You gotta. Rebecca: Yeah. Susan: You gotta get ‘em. Rebecca: Yep. Yep. I got a few of them, but, they’re kind of hard to find, yeah. Susan: Yeah. Rebecca: Okay, well, take care and, once again, I really appreciate your giving your time for this. Susan: Sure! Sure. Okay, well I hope this was helpful. Rebecca: Mhmm! Bye! Susan: Alright, buh-bye! � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource WyoHistory.org Wyoming Symphony Orchestra Oral History Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/</a> Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2022-2023 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource WyoHistory.org; Rebecca Hein Language A language of the resource ENG Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NCA 01.i.2022.02 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound; Text Description An account of the resource Audio files and transcripts created and edited by Rebecca Hein and students at Casper College during an oral history project with players of the Wyoming Symphony Orchestra. The oral histories were conducted by Hein between 2022 and 2023 and are a part of Wyohistory.org publishing project. Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data M4A Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Susan Stanton Wyoming Symphony Orchestra Oral History Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/</a> Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2022-06-23 Description An account of the resource Audio file and transcript for oral history interview with Wyoming Symphony Orchestra player Susan Stanton. This interview was conducted by Rebecca Hein for Wyohistory.org on June 23, 2022. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound; Text Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Becky Hein; Susan Stanton Language A language of the resource ENG Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. WyoHistory.org Wyoming Symphony Orchestra Oral History Project, NCA 01.i.2022.02 WyCaC US. Casper College Archives and Special Collections. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NCA 01.i.2022.02_SusanStanton Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3; PDF https://caspercollege.cvlcollections.org/files/original/9d6c58e88aca941d36babe15271b0914.m4a e4d0890b2ace63deb7bb9d900e34e89f https://caspercollege.cvlcollections.org/files/original/469a7647550e1a12c61704660b65ddbc.pdf cba189fd22ecfa259114f16dbbd23fc3 PDF Text Text Wyoming Symphony Oral History Project Rebecca Hein interviewing Virginia Himes, September 16, 2022 Date transcribed: October 10, 2022 Rebecca: Hi. Let's start since I have started the recording now. Let's start with your name, your instrument, and how you came to play that instrument. Virginia: My name is Virginia Himes. I played the violin; I was six years old, an aunt of mine started me on the violin. Rebecca: Did she give you lessons? Virginia: Yes, she did. Rebecca: Did she have a violin? Virginia: She was a music teacher. Rebecca: I see. And did she have an instrument to give you or to lend to you? Or how did that work? Virginia: I really don't know ... I'm sure she got the instrument from the school. Rebecca: Okay. So for how many years did you take lessons? Virginia: From the time I was six years old. Through the time I was a sophomore in college. Rebecca: Okay. And what did you major in, in college? Virginia: I went to a two year school and you really couldn't. Back in the day, you didn't have a major. You just took credits and got an associates. I did go on and study. I was going to go into music therapy, but then I dropped out. Rebecca: Have you kept playing the violin this whole time? Virginia: Have I quit playing the violin? Rebecca: Go ahead. Virginia: I'm sorry ... What [did] you ask me? Rebecca: I meant to ask you if you had continued playing the violin this whole time. Virginia: Even now? No, I played until 2019. �Rebecca: Okay. And ... [you’ve] played in the Wyoming Symphony Orchestra that whole time from when you started with the symphony until 2019. Virginia: No. I started in December of 1974 with the symphony, and I retired in December of 2019. I played 45 years. Rebecca: Okay. So in 1974 that that would have been under Curtis Peacock, is that correct? Virginia: Yes. Rebecca: Do you have memories from those early years [you can tell] me? That would have been the Casper Civic Symphony, I believe. Virginia: I think that's what it was called. I have memories of it. I have very good memories of it. Rebecca: What are some of your memories from back then? Virginia: But I think ... now mostly [of] the camaraderie that we had. I had moved to Casper, in fact, just a few days before I started the symphony. And I have just very fond memories. I learned a lot. Played a lot. And thoroughly enjoyed it the whole time. Rebecca: From the years that you were playing under Curtis Peacock, more than 20 years I believe. Do you have particular memories of pieces that you played under him that you especially enjoyed? Virginia: I guess I'm one of the strange ones. I enjoyed everything we played. I just loved playing and I really didn't care what it was. I just enjoyed playing and tried to do my best always. Rebecca: That's great. Were you in the first violin section the whole time? From the very beginning. Virginia: I think when I first came, I had not played for a few years and so I asked to play [in the] second [violin section], and I think I played in that section for maybe one or two concerts, and then I moved to the first [violin] section. Rebecca: Then Curtis Peacock left the orchestra in the early 2000s, and Jonathan Shames became the conductor. Virginia: Yes. Rebecca: So you played under Jonathan Shames for the three years that he was here, is that correct? Virginia: Yes, I did. Rebecca: Do you have specific things to tell us about that time. Virginia: I liked every conductor I played under. I simply learned a lot of things. Enjoyed playing. I think every one of them, I am not going to say they had a specialty. They, just looking �back ... [they each] had their own way of doing things. And I enjoyed playing under all the conductors. Rebecca: So that that would include Matthew Savery, you enjoyed playing under him. Virginia: I did. Very much so. Learned a lot from him. Yes. Rebecca: The orchestra did some difficult pieces under Matthew Savery, I've noticed. Did you find that especially fun? Things like Mahler's Fifth Symphony and the Tchaikowsky Serenade for Strings. [Gustav Mahler, 19th and 20th century Austro-Bohemian composer and conductor; Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, 19th century Russian composer] Virginia: ... I enjoyed it very much. Like I say, anything, the conductor put in front of us I enjoyed learning about it and practicing and doing the best I could. I had 45 years of absolutely wonderful experiences. Rebecca: In 2019? Was Christopher Dragon the conductor or was it still Matthew Savery? I can't recall. Virginia: When I quit I [had] played one or two concerts under Mr. Dragon. Yes. In my opinion, he's a brilliant man. Rebecca: Yeah. He seems to be a really excellent conductor from everything I've heard. Virginia: Yes. Yes. Rebecca: Okay. I have one more question, which is: Well, you've sort of answered it already, but I'll ask it anyway. Does any one musical performance jump out at you as being the absolute high point of your time playing. With the orchestra in Casper. Virginia: I absolutely loved playing the Messiah [by George Friedrich Handel, late 17th and early 18th century German-British composer]. Absolutely loved playing Beethoven's Ninth [Symphony]. I loved them all. I really can't say. Any favorite I had? I think my time in the symphony. We were fortunate. We played with pops groups. Any kind of group that came. It was just a joy. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Rebecca: Okay. That's great. Do you have anything else you would like to tell us about your time with the symphony? Forty-five years is a very long time. Virginia: Yes, it is. I could tell you I'm only 35, but you wouldn't believe me. Um, I think. I think everyone should have a musical experience. I think people that say they don't like classical music, they don't realize they hear it all the time. And it was just one of the most wonderful experiences I've had in my life to be able to be honored to play that. I was lucky. I enjoyed playing when you played. Rebecca: Yeah, that was a that was a good period for the symphony in the 90s. I would have been in the Civic Symphony in 1974 also. But I can't say that I specifically remember you from then. It was a long time [ago]. �Virginia: We were much younger then. Rebecca: I was a senior in high school in 1974. Well, in December I would have been a freshman at college, so. Virginia: In ‘74. That's when Deb Bovie started playing. And I know she was a senior at Kelly Walsh [high school]. Rebecca: Right. Virginia: I don't know if you and Deb played together [at] the same time. I just know that was the first time we ever met that many years ago. So. Rebecca: Ginny, I want to go back to something you said a little while ago. You said some people think they don't like classical music, but they hear it all the time. Could you be a little more specific about that? Virginia: About hearing classical music? Rebecca: Yeah. Virginia: All right. Well, people will say they don't like it, but you know as well as I do that oftentimes with commercials, the music is classical music. And I'm sure they hear that and they don't sit and go, ugh ugh ugh. I just think they hear it. They hear it in more ways than they think they do. Rebecca: Do you think part of the problem is people are hesitant to come to a concert because they don't know how they should behave or how they should dress, things like that. Virginia: I think they don't come because you think classical music and you think long hair, boring things? Um, I think it needs to be more introduced into the schools. As you well know, in several places there is not instrumental music in the grade schools anymore. That upset me terribly. I just think everyone should be exposed to it. I don't care if it's just two weeks in a classroom. I think everyone should be exposed to it and I think they would have a big awakening if they did. Everything in this life is not a rock band or a country band. And you're supposed to say, right? Right. Rebecca: Well, as far as I can tell, orchestras have always struggled with the image of that being for somebody else. Or being for an exclusive crowd and not being for the common person or whatever. That's unfortunate, but I'm familiar with that. Virginia: It is. Yes. Yes. Right? Right. Rebecca: I remember; I don't know if you have run into anything like this, but when I was in the [Casper] Youth Symphony way back when I was in high school in the 70s, we had to help with fundraising, which was fine. What we did was on Saturday mornings we would go around to people's houses and ask them for the pop bottles. The empty Pepsi and Coca Cola bottles that �they might have in their garages. You probably remember you had to put out a deposit for those bottles and then you could take them back and get your deposit money back. Virginia: So. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Rebecca: So we would ask them if they would be willing to donate their empty bottles and then we would take them back and get the money from them. And many times, [after] we identified ourselves, they would say, Oh, we support the Casper Troopers. You know, we'll give you our pop bottles. But we really we, we prefer to support the Troopers. So I don't want to say anything against the Troopers. But I do remember having a sense that the majority of people in Casper, if they had to choose who they were going to support, it would be the Troopers and not the Youth Symphony or the Civic Symphony. Virginia: I know. That's very sad. So sad. I have heard that you perform personally our great symphony performs. If anyone wants to do that, I think that's fine. And I would support their wanting to. That's just my choice. But I know that that mentality and it still is. Rebecca: Yeah. And I do not know how the Troopers are doing now, but I know when I was in high school they were entering competitions for drum and bugle corps and winning and winning and winning and winning. Probably generating a lot of civic pride. And I had friends that were in the Troopers and they didn't have any time at all because outside of school what they did was rehearse with the Troopers, which that's okay. I don't think you could have gotten classical music students to rehearse that much, partly because it just wouldn't have been a popular idea among the parents and the teachers and so on. That's a guess. Virginia: I think someone told me that the Troopers kind of, they weren't what they used to be. But I have not seen their program this year. But I have spoken to someone who has been around the Troopers. I don't know how long they've been around. I know she's been around them a good 50 years and I know she said the program they're doing this year is the best she has ever seen. I've not seen it, so I don't know, but I still prefer symphony music. Rebecca: Yeah, me too. But that's not too surprising since we are symphony classical musicians. Virginia: Are you still playing at all, Becky? Rebecca: Oh, just for my own fun. Yeah. Virginia: Oh. Okay. Well, keep it up as long as you can. Rebecca: That's the deal at our age, isn't it? Virginia: I have two shoulders that kind of balk at me playing, so I clearly haven't played. I'm very fortunate [inaudible]. You think of all the things that who we played for and not that many people in this world get to do that. So I'm very thankful. Rebecca: Yeah. The guest artists we had. Seems like from way back they were all excellent. The soloists came in from outside. It just seems like most of them were ... it was amazing to be on the same stage with them and listen to them play. �Virginia: Oh, yeah, yeah. Lots of times you sat there with your mouth just wide open. Looking, listening? Rebecca: Yeah. Do you recall any particular guest artist that was a standout for you? Virginia: Alexander Markov is certainly a heck of a player. And there was one. Do you remember? I think he was in Alaska. And he would come down and play. Do you remember that? Rebecca: I can't think who that would have been. Virginia: I can't. I can't either. I know Alexander Markov [Russian-American violinist] is a good friend of Matthew's [Savery]. Some player named Brian. Unfortunately, he passed away, but he was an absolute tremendous player. There were a lot of the soloists [that] came and played so. Enjoyed for the most part, most of them some of them had a little trouble but I wasn't up there playing and I couldn't have done it. So. You just go on. I have to give them credit. Rebecca: Did you find that any of them ... I kind of remember this, that any of them had what you might call an attitude. They were a world famous soloist, and we were a little bitty community orchestra and ... they were lowering themselves to be on the same stage with us. They never said it. You just got the feeling. Do you recall anything like that? Virginia: You had this feeling, and it wasn't necessarily anything they said. Maybe we were reading just a look they gave us, you know, like. You should be able to play this absolutely perfectly. Well, guess what? I don't recall any any of them saying anything. You know, it was just and I'm sure you saw it, too. They would just maybe turn around and look with that. Looks like, come on and get it together. So. We did the best we could. We had a lot ... we had a lot of good times. We really did. We had a lot of good times. And I think if you think back then too, so many of us that have been around for a long time, the word I hear is we all cared. You know, it was a community orchestra, like you say, and it just it's grown. People still care. I'm sure it's just I loved it right up until the very end when I retired, I just knew that I'd reached the point that I had to retire. I just loved it all through the different stages that it went through. Rebecca: That's wonderful. I have one guest soloist I want to ask you about, if you can remember, because I was so impressed that the symphony was able to get him. This is in recent years. He was a French horn player. His name is Eric Ruske. Do you recall his soloing with the symphony not too many years ago? Virginia: Many years ago. Not too many? Rebecca: Maybe as much as 7 years ago. Okay. Virginia: A French horn player, we had. Rebecca: Yep. Virginia: I can't remember who's been there the last few years. And then the person. I guess I don't know who you're speaking of. �Rebecca: This would have been a guest artist, not a regular member of the symphony. Virginia: Oh. They came in and played. Rebecca: Yeah. Played a solo or concerto or something. Virginia: Right? Yeah. Okay. I can’t remember that. Rebecca: Okay. Do you have anything else you would like to tell me? For the historical record here. Virginia: First of all, thank you for thinking of me, Becky, and asking me. It's been a good many years since we've communicated. I just am 100 percent behind orchestras, symphonies, and I certainly hope that they all can continue. I know some have had difficulty, but I just hope all of them can continue and people can keep enjoying going to the concerts. Rebecca: Yeah. Me too. Well, you’re very welcome for being included. You're one of the longest standing members of the orchestra. So you've seen a lot of changes and a lot of things going on. Virginia: You can help. Rebecca: Well, we're basically done. So thank you very much again for making yourself available. Virginia: Oh, Becky, it’s like I say, thank you so much for thinking of me and stay in touch. Rebecca: Okay, thanks. Take care. Virginia: Okay. Talk to you. Oh, you did the same. Bye bye. Rebecca: Bye bye. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource WyoHistory.org Wyoming Symphony Orchestra Oral History Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/</a> Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2022-2023 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource WyoHistory.org; Rebecca Hein Language A language of the resource ENG Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NCA 01.i.2022.02 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound; Text Description An account of the resource Audio files and transcripts created and edited by Rebecca Hein and students at Casper College during an oral history project with players of the Wyoming Symphony Orchestra. The oral histories were conducted by Hein between 2022 and 2023 and are a part of Wyohistory.org publishing project. Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data M4A Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Virginia Himes Wyoming Symphony Orchestra Oral History Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/</a> Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2022-09-16 Description An account of the resource Audio file and transcript for oral history interview with Wyoming Symphony Orchestra player Virginia Himes. This interview was conducted by Rebecca Hein for Wyohistory.org on September 16, 2022. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound; Text Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Becky Hein; Virginia Himes Language A language of the resource ENG Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. WyoHistory.org Wyoming Symphony Orchestra Oral History Project, NCA 01.i.2022.02 WyCaC US. Casper College Archives and Special Collections. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NCA 01.i.2022.02_VirginiaHimes Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource M4A; PDF https://caspercollege.cvlcollections.org/files/original/cf19ced7bcd12fea5472d38938a1371b.jpg d5ea479f02b6c1e272bb170d29ec30b1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Photos by Bell Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NKC/1.0/">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NKC/1.0/</a> Subject The topic of the resource Casper (inhabited place) Description An account of the resource Photographs by Bell, Casper, WY. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Photographic print Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Panoramic photo showing Casper Fire Station No. 2 Description An account of the resource Panoramic photo showing Casper Fire Station No. 2 and Asbestos Headquarters. Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bell Photo Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NCA 01.ii.FireDepartmentNo2 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource JPG Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. The physical copy of this photograph was given to the repository by Martha Horn in 2004. https://caspercollege.cvlcollections.org/files/original/b3c45b579b55d203717e1af1a4659e1a.pdf c1854a81215735d3bcd0d7b6a5716110 PDF Text Text IT TAKES HEART Bill Bolles I could hear my assistants yelling their heads off. It was the eighth time in two months that I had been here sitting in the corner, on the floor, with my head bowed wondering where I had gone wrong. I was the head football coach at a new high school, and it half time in our game; we were losing 13-0. So far the team had a perfect record, no wins and eight de­ feats. We had come into the game, I felt, with a strong chance of winning, but mistakes, single little mistakes that we had made over and over, time and time again, had spelled defeat. Well, the team was trying very hard, but we were still making stupid little mistakes, and we were still losing. I got up from my lonely corner, where I had been feeling sorry for myself, and went back into the dressing room. “All right,” I quipped, “What’s wrong with you guys?” Quiet enveloped the room, everyone was hanging their heads for they couldn’t face me. “Are you gonna quit?” 1 got a little carried away and be­ gan to yell freely.” “You’re beatin’ yourselves kids, you guys have lost all your respect, half of you don’t belong in a football uniform, you get down and you quit!” The team still bowed their heads, they didn’t like to lose, but a loung team with no seniors, and the rest with little or no experience had a pretty tough fight to stay alive in this fast game of football. I was mad now, I couldn’t stand to see my ball club humiliated and pushed around; we were like ants, we got kicked, stepped on, and killed all at once. “When are you gonna start playin’ ball?” 1 asked. “Lay down and die, don’t fight back, but don’t ask me for sympathy after we lose again. What does it take, an­ other 38-0 stomping like last week? Think about it kids, if you’ve got any respect for yourselve, if you’ve got any guts, if you’re not afraid to go knock heads, go out there and tie that game up.” A few of the players looked up, but for the most part, they were all looking down as we took the field for the second half. For some reason I felt my little lecture might have done some good, but my hopes were soon destroyed, for no sooner had play resumed than we were down, 20-0. We began to rally back briefly, but we couldn’t keep pace, the opposing team hit the board again; we trailed 27-0. As the game ended, I was simply discouraged. I had given up a fine job as assistant in a school system that had been the home of the state football championship for three years. Sure I figured for the worse when I came here, but 1 didn’t expect to get slaughtered every time out. We had played eight games and only hit the scoring columns twice. We scored twice in one game, the rest of the time we had been shutout. We had played a couple of games good enough to win, but other times we played like a �■■■ w group of girls. I was completely down, I was ashamed of my team. I felt maybe they didn’t care anymore. I tried to ask myself where 1 had been wrong, why didn’t we win just a few times? I was beginning to feel that I hadn’t gained the confidence of my players, maybe I hadn’t done my job as a coach. Sitting in the corner at half time seemed to be the only thing to do, for if I had failed the team, I didn’t want to face them. Everyone was chanting win; the school, the team, the newspaper, but we still lost. Twelve boys quit for assorted reasons, mostly my strict train­ ing rules. My problems seemed to mount with each day; we were young, inexperienced. 1 had watched the guys make mistakes we should never have made, 1 corrected the mistake and watched them make another one or the same one over again. I was at the point 1 couldn’t sleep at night, 1 had lost my appetite; I soon discovered why some coaches get ulcers. The week passed quickly, soon the last game of the season would be here. People were asking me how 1 felt about losing and about the next game. The only thing I could say was that we were still trying, as long as we don’t quit, we have a chance to win. If we play good ball, we can win. Good ball, easier said than done, I thought to myself. So many things would have to go right for us to win, we can’t even get one thing for us consis­ tently. Friday night arrived and we took the field against our ‘cross town ri­ vals. No one felt we had a chance, and 1 prepared to resume my position at half time. I was discouraged before the game started, but for the first time, the team seemed to be fired up. The coaching staff, including me, was not ready to quit, we thought we could win. In the dressing room I gave a few words of encouragement before we took the field. “I’m going to leave you alone tonight, this one is up to you. If you want to win, go get it, if you don’t want to win, let’s just stay in here and save ourselves some work.” No one moved, then at the call from the field, we made our way out, full of chatter and spirit. The first half was a sight that I had seen over and over. The opposi­ tion hit pay dirt twice in the first six minutes of play. I kept getting angrier and angrier with each play and the team’s ego shot straight down. Trying to keep my head up with pride, I found that the team was ashamed of themeselves and I was ashamed of them, along with my ill fate. Each time we started to drive into enemy territory, something happened and we blew sky high. Late in the second quarter we stopped a long drive by our rivals, only to fumble, lose the ball, and have another touchdown scored. The half ended, 1 slowly trudged to the locker area trailing 20-0. One of my players came up to me and asked, “What’s wrong with us coach?” “If I knew that, our problems would be solved. We’re not hitting, we have no guts, and no one cares,” I answered. —24— �“We can’t get going, coach,” came a reply. “Get goin’, you guys haven’t moved, this is the last game of the sea­ son and you havn’t showed me that you’re a ball team.” In the locker room, I sat down in the corner again, almost on the verge of tears. I had great respect for my ball team, and I just couldn’t stand see­ ing them beaten this way. It hurt me to see another ball club insult us this way. I sat there for about six minutes, although it seemed as if I had been there for an hour. I heard my staff going over the mistakes in the first half, I had heard the questions, in fact, I had heard all I could stand. I got to my feet and walked into the room. Everyone was quiet now, as they were wait­ ing for me to make my comments. Scratching my head I commented, “Okay, we’re down but not out, I challene you to show me that you are a football team. You can win it or you can lose it, it’s up to you.” The team fired up again as they left the room for the field. I had given up almost to where it didn’t matter anymore. It had been a long season, I wanted to get it over with. We took the opening kickoff, marching up field in four plays to score. I couldn’t believe it, we scored a touchdown. I almost came to life, but be­ fore I could get my bearings, we got the ball back and hit pay dirt again. Suddenly I became hyperactive, I started yelling, my head came up, I sensed something, we had jelled. The defenders couldn’t stop us in the third quarter, we were moving well, and for the third time in eight minutes, we took the pigskin into the end zone to score. The extra point was good, and for the first time in the history of the school, we were leading, 21-20. The third period ended; the hardest part of football was now upon us, we didn’t have the ball, we were in the lead, and we had to hold that lead, we had to stop them from scor­ ing. I found myself running incircles, shouting, “Get tough! Hustle, hustle! Hold tight boys, hold on!” Sweat poured from my head, I was actually excited. Eight minutes remained, they had the ball on their own thirty. First I was up, from one side of the bench to the other, then I squatted down, I could not take the suspense, I was up and pacing again. How much longer could they hold? The opposing forces took the ball to the midfield, seven minutes left. I was scared, we had to hold, we couldn’t let down. The time ticked away, oh, so slowly. I had never endured such a thing, I would never last the ball game; five minutes showed on the clock, my heart flut­ tered with every second of it. The crowd began to get restless, they could not take the actions eith­ er, they wanted someone to score again. I kept eyeing the clock; they start­ ed to move the ball well against my defense when I looked at the board, be—25— �fore I brought my eyes back to the scene of action, we had recovered a fumble. We had the ball! I was shouting to the players, “Sit on it, sit on it fellas, we’ve got to hold on to that football!” I was shaking in my shoes, we were so close to a victory, the first victory in the history of the school. Tick, tick tick, the clock moved on, slowly and surely. Two minutes to go, we still had the ball, then a fumble. Oh God, we had lost the danged thing again! My heart jumped and pounded furiously. This was no place for a weak heart. I watched, anticipating every move. 1 saw the pass from the opposi­ tion hit the air, I watched the receiver snatch the ball out of the air, and then I watched him carry it in for the winning score. But wait! A flag was down! A penalty, the ball was called back! I was jumping up and down, the clock ran out, we had won! I was so happy I could hardly stand it. One of my players, the same one I had chatted with the first half, came by, took one look, and chimed, “Coach, you’re crying.” I looked at him and smiled, “Yeah, I’m crying.” THE CREEPING JOHNNIES Here they come! Whispering, sighing, feeling Their way through the trees. Here they Come! Veiling, hiding, masking Everything in their way. It was warm before. Now they are here! Turning everything COLD, COLD, COLD, OH, SO COLD! My Singing Tree is silent Oh, so silent. Wrapped in a mantle of Wisping, clinging, grasping Creeping Johnnies. Ah! there they go! The sun is glinting through The Singing Tree, silent no more. Is happy that they are gone. —Carolyn Adams � Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document Print non-fiction story Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource "It Takes Heart" Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-EDU/1.0/">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-EDU/1.0/</a> The Casper College Archives has archived this story to encourage the use of its Expression Literary Arts Magazines for digital humanities and other related educational uses. Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 1964 Description An account of the resource Non-fiction story published by football coach Bill Bolles in the fall 1964 Casper College Expression magazine. Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bill Bolles Language A language of the resource ENG Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. 1964 Fall. Expression Literary and Arts Magazine, CCA 04.ii.c.2022.01 WyCaC US. Casper College Archives and Special Collections. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CCA_04.ii.c.01_Expression1964_Fall_Bolles Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Extent The size or duration of the resource. 4 pages https://caspercollege.cvlcollections.org/files/original/8e880b86b31f1ccf6781a994f02ddfaf.jpeg 4261cbd1eb86f546ca8d2fec71cdf8bc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Casper Journal Records Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Reclaimed Bentonite Mines Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/en/statements/">http://rightsstatements.org/en/statements/</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NCA 01.ii.1999.01_ReclaimedBentoniteMines Type The nature or genre of the resource still image Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Black Hills Bentonite https://caspercollege.cvlcollections.org/files/original/2defb9f576eda8b394aaf83d2f23d420.jpg 514d841f77912fa424e9ff7d80b33230 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mrs. Robert Blackmore Collection Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NKC/1.0/">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NKC/1.0/</a> Description An account of the resource The Mrs. Robert Blackmore collection consists of 140 photographs dating from 1888 to 1938, including images of the Blackmore family and friends, the Standard and Midwest Oil Refineries, the Gothberg Ranch, and historical photographs of early buildings in Casper, Wyoming, and various locations in Bessemer, Wyoming. The collection also includes letters, writings, genealogical information, scrapbook pages, news clippings, and various family documents. Mrs. Robert Blackmore was the wife of Robert Blackmore, who was the son of Walter A. Blackmore (1863-1923). Walter A. Blackmore was a prominent early Casper resident and was mayor of Casper from 1920 until his death in a train accident in 1923. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NCA 01.v.1974.01 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Print photographs and paper documents Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Mrs. Robert Blackmore Collection, NCA 01.v.1974.01 WyCaC US. Casper College Archives and Special Collections.<br /><br />The finding aid for these and other items in this collection is available for viewing:<br /><a href="https://caspercollegearchives.libraryhost.com/repositories/2/resources/307" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://caspercollegearchives.libraryhost.com/repositories/2/resources/307</a> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Blackmore Family Type The nature or genre of the resource Image, Text Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Mrs. Robert Blackmore Collection, NCA 01.v.1974.01. Casper College Archives and Special Collections. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Casper College Archives and Special Collections (Western History Center) Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Photographic print Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Central Hotel Group Photo Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-EDU/1.0/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-EDU/1.0/</a> Access Rights Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies. The reformatted images in the Mrs. Robert Blackmore Collection are for personal, not-for profit use of students, researchers, and the public. Any use must provide attribution to the Casper College Archives and Special Collections (Western History Center). While being the property of Casper College, all text, images and other materials are subject to applicable copyright laws. Commercial use, electronic reproduction, or print publication of text, images, or other materials is strictly prohibited without written permission. All permissions to publish must be obtained from the rights holder and are not the repository's responsibility for securing. The rights holder may or may not be the repository. Users also agree to hold the repository harmless from legal claims arising from their use of material held by the institution and made accessible in this digital repository. Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 07-04-1902 Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of a group in front of the Grand Central Hotel, Casper, Wyoming on July 4th, 1902. The individuals in the photo are numbered and names as follows: 1. Rolla Clark, Rancher 2. Al Rice, Rancher 3. W.A. Dennecke, Sheepman 4. 5. Jack Wright, Sheepman 6. Laura Patton 7. Irma Patton (Mrs. Silas Brooks) 8. Dr. Fred Salathe, Oil Refiner - Refinery S. of R.R. on Wolcott St. 9. Mrs. Salathe 10. Valarie Salathe 11. Mayme Smiley (Mrs. Frank Scherck) 12. Isabell Wheeler (Mrs. Fritz Craig) 13. Mrs. Kenneth McDonald 14. J. S. Van Doren, Saddle Maker, Later Postmaster and Councilman 15. Abbey Brooks (Mrs. R. H. Nichols) 16. Mrs. Rolla Clark 17. 18. Mrs. Jeff Crawford 19. Pat Royce, later Justice of the Peace 20. Mrs. N.S. Bristol 21. Mrs. B.B. Brooks 22. Wilson S. Kimball, Jr. 23. Mrs. W.S. Kimball 24. Mrs. Blanche Merrick (Mrs. Kimball's Sister) 25. Wilson S. Kimball, Drug Store Proprietor, later Mayor 26. Mrs. Frank Webb 27. Mrs. Dan Rhoades, (Freda Von Thulin) 28. Jake Crouse, Rancher 29. Lew C. Seeley, Gunsmith and Oil Prospector 30. Mrs. C.H. Townsend, (Lilly Bristol) 31. 32. Mrs. Jack McGrath (Laura Stroud) 33. William "Missou" Hines, Livestock Solicitor for Railroad 34. P.A. Demorest, Restaurant Proprietor 35. G.E. Butler 36. 37. Park Hays, Town Clerk, Newspaper Publisher (Wyoming Derrick) 38. Jack "Posthole" McGrath, Rancher, later Justice of the Peace 39. A. J. Mokler, Newspaper Publisher, later wrote Natrona County History 40. Marion P. Wheeler, County Clerk, Insurance 41. Walter A. Blackmore, Rancher, later Mayor 42. Frank Bull, County Treasurer 43. Bryant B. Brooks, Rancher, later Banker and State Governor 44. Peter C. Nicolaysen, Lumber Dealer, later Banker Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Blackmore Family Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Mrs. Robert Blackmore Collection, NCA 01.v.1974.01 WyCaC US. Casper College Archives and Special Collections. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource JPG Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Casper College Archives and Special Collections (Western History Center) Relation A related resource <a href="https://caspercollege.cvlcollections.org/collections/show/42" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://caspercollege.cvlcollections.org/collections/show/42</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NCA 01.v.1974.01_Grand Central Hotel Group Photo_07-04-1902